161. IOS Updates. Tools To Improve Performance


161. iOS Updates. Tools To Improve Performance

21 June 2022 | By Salome Schillack

This week we're tackling the golden question.. should you be using Facebook's new tech tool CAPI (AKA Conversation API) right now?

If you're anything like me, tech isn't your favorite cup of tea. It can be really intimidating trying to figure it all out, and it always feels like as soon as you’re on top of it all, Facebook surprises us all with new updates to decode. (Thaaaannnkkss #not).

But no need to decode alone. We’ll unpack everything you need to know in this week's episode of The Shine Show!

We've heard that Zucks has been sliding into your inboxes lately with some important updates on CAPI. 

First things first…. don't panic! 

Secondly…. What the heck is CAPI?

CAPI is causing quite the stir in the online marketing world right now. And so it should! 

Beyond the slightly uncomfortable change in tech levers & systems, CAPI is excellent news for all online course creators. In a nutshell, it's a game-changing tool that will improve your ads' overall performance and decrease the cost you pay per campaign. 

Love that for us!

So how exactly can you use CAPI and start amping up those ad results?

I'm lucky enough to have three of the smartest cyber cookies I know working on my team. Not only are they geniuses in tech, but they can also explain it in a way that doesn't sound like morse code!

This week on the show, Caroline, Amy & Hana take a deep dive into CAPI and give us the full rundown of the new updates, its impact on iOS updates, and how you can start benefiting from it today.

Grab a coffee (or something a little stronger if you need, no judgment here), set aside 17 minutes, and let's get techy!




PS: If you’re a committed online course launcher who wants to scale bigger and make more sales, The Launch Lounge is the place to be. Inside the membership, you’ll be first in the know with all the new tech updates, have access to all the education you need and access to industry experts who will personally coach you to 6-figure launches and beyond! Get on the waitlist here.

When you subscribe and review the podcast not only does that give me the warm and fuzzies all over, it also helps other people to find the show.

When other people find the show they get to learn how to create more freedom in their lives from their online courses too!!

So do a good deed for all womenkind and subscribe and review this show and I will reward you with a shout out on the show!!


160. Navigating Fear and Reclaiming Personal Power With Claire Yee

S&S_P159_WP_Thumbnail (1)

159. Your Launch Failed.. Now What?


158. Learning To Value Slow Progress Over Instant Success When Chasing Your Dreams with Diane Evans


157. 3 Things Every Online Marketer Needs To Know To Successfully Scale Their Online Course Funnels


156. Three Design Trends The Algorithm Loves with Jacqui Naunton


155. What To Fix First In Your Funnel


154. From Luxury Interior Design To Successful Online Course Creators with Sarah Cates of House Of Funk


153. Hiring an Integrator. How To Find The Right Person The First Time


152. How To Instantly Create More Freedom In Your Business


151. How I’m Slowing Down So That I Can Speed Up


150. How To Show Up As The Expert You Are And Overcome Your Imposter Syndrome


149. How To Find Your People Online and Finally Start Making Sales

Salome Schillack (00:00):

Hello, and welcome to episode number 161 of the Shine Show. In today's episode, we are going to talk about some iOS updates. And specifically we're going to share with you tools that will help you improve the performance of your ads. Now, you know that I have been running ads for online course creators from way back in 2016. And as the agency that I've built have grown, I have added more and more incredibly smart women to my team. These women really know so much about Facebook and Instagram ads that they can put me to shame. And I am so happy that I can hand off all these techy things to them. And they understand it so well that they can implement it for our clients and help our VIP students inside the launch lounge, really understand how these things works.


Salome Schillack (01:03):

But what I wanted to do was I wanted to bring them on the show and I wanted them to share with you in their natural native language, which is geek speak, what these tools are, and how they work, and how you can use them, and what you should be doing. So without further ado, let me bring you Caroline Fenton, Amy Wyhoon, and Hana Abello. Three of this smartest Facebook and Instagram ads managers that I know, who spend all their days running ads for online course creators like you, as they discuss iOS updates and tools that will improve your performance.


Salome Schillack (01:51):

Giving up your time and freedom to make money is so 2009. Hi, I'm your host Salome Schillack. And I help online course creators launch, grow, and scale their businesses with Facebook and Instagram ads. So that they can make more money and have an even bigger impact in the world. If you are ready to be inspired to dream bigger, launch sooner, and grow your online business faster, then tune in. Because you are ready to shine. And this is the Shine Show.


Salome Schillack (02:25):

I wonder if you got the email Facebook has been sending out to anyone who runs ads for their business in the last six months. Not just one email, many emails they've sent out, telling everyone about Conversion API or this brand new tool that they have developed to help you improve tracking. They really have caused quite a stir amongst our clients and our students with these emails, they keep sending out telling everyone that they have this tool that everyone should be implementing. And everyone should be getting it because it's going to work better for you for data and analytics. But then when you try to figure out how to actually implement this tool, Facebook is like, "We don't really know." And they don't really have clear instructions either. Most of the time their canned answer is, "Here's a link to a blog post where you can read more about it and send it to your developer and have them figure it out."


Salome Schillack (03:28):

This tool that Facebook is talking about is called Conversion API, or abbreviated as CAPI. And if you have had a conversation with the Facebook Ads Marketing Specialist, and they've told you need CAPI. Or you've seen those emails come out from Facebook or Meta telling you need CAPI. Then we are going to unpack that for you today. And we're going to talk about what CAPI is and how exactly it helps us get more accurate data for our Facebook and Instagram ads. We uncover a little bit more about the relationship between CAPI and the Pixel and whether or not CAPI is going to replace the Pixel. And we answer the question, should you be using CAPI right now? So here to unpack all of that for you is Caroline Fenton, Amy Wyhoon, and Hana Abello. Like I said, three of the smartest women I know. Three women I can geek out with all day long and they are going to explain CAPI to you.


Caroline Fenton (04:32):

All right. So one of the things we get asked a lot about is Conversion API or CAPI, for short. So you might have heard this thing talked about in the world of Facebook ads, and we just wanted to have a little chat today about what it is, and a few things around it. And hopefully at the end of the conversation, you guys will have a bigger understanding as to what it is and why you need to worry about it. So, yeah. What is Conversion API?


Amy Wyhoon (04:56):

Ooh, I've got this one, Caroline. Conversion API allows advertisers to send web events from their service directly to Facebook. It creates a connection between the data and Facebook. So the Pixel previously. Like we put the Pixel on the website and Facebook would be able to read what was happening off, like Facebook on your website. And now the Conversion API, the piece of code that we connect now sends traffic direct from the server. So it's like sending it the other way back to Facebook.


Caroline Fenton (05:34):

Right. Okay. So just to clarify, I guess. We've got the current Pixel, which is using browser and then next the Conversion API, which is, what would you say rather than browser, it's server. Server.


Amy Wyhoon (05:49):

Server side. Yeah.


Caroline Fenton (05:50):

Okay. So how would you sum it up if you say how they differ?


Amy Wyhoon (05:54):

So the Conversion API gives Facebook a more complete picture, especially with obviously the tracking issue that iOS has caused us. It's just giving us a bigger picture as to what is actually happening off Facebook. So that we can still manage the ads in the back end and know what's happening. It helps improve our reporting so we can keep on top of our clients ads as well.


Caroline Fenton (06:23):

All right. So in of why we need it, you say, "Yeah, it gives us a bit bigger picture of user activity. It's going to help improve reporting and conversion tracking. It gives us more complete picture of what's going on and ads for maybe a bit more data that might been lost to browser.


Amy Wyhoon (06:40):

Absolutely. And it helps us to, obviously, optimize our campaigns too. Because Facebook's got more data in the campaign to learn from. It's essentially the same data as the Pixel. But it just adds a little bit more info to it and assigns it an activity. Like it gives it an event ID so that you can track it a little bit within the back. Of course another question that's thrown around is the CAPI going to replace the Pixel?


Caroline Fenton (07:17):

Yeah, that is a good question. I guess the short answer is, no. In the short term, at least, the browser Pixel, as we know it isn't going anywhere. So no, it doesn't replace it. It actually supplements it. Like we were saying earlier, it's giving you a more complete set of data to work with. So they actually work together and together they send Facebook as much data as possible to be able to optimize your ad campaigns even better. So basically both will fire from browser and from the server for the CAPI and then Facebook matches that data and then reports them back as the same event. So it's a process obviously to get that working. And you might have heard about the de-duplication issue that some people have and the process of de-duplicating events. Did you want to talk bit more about de-duplication?


Hana Abello (08:06):

Yeah. So de-duplication means that two events have been merged into one. So earlier you mentioned that the CAPI won't be replacing the pixel. And Facebook actually recommends having the CAPI on top of the Pixel. So if we have both the Pixel on the website and the CAPI on the backend reporting data back to Facebook. If someone does something on your website, Facebook is getting the same information from two different sources and the way that Facebook can tell that it's the same activity, even though it's coming in as two events is through the event ID that it assigns to this event.


Caroline Fenton (08:55):

Thanks Hana. Yeah. I think it's really important to talk about de-duplication because a lot of people they might have installed the CAPI. They might see it working. But there's this de-duplication error and things going on. So I don't think it's foolproof at the moment, is it? In terms of-


Hana Abello (09:11):

Yeah, no. So a lot of the native integrations that websites and platforms have with Facebook, in terms of implementing CAPI on those platforms, it hasn't really perfected de-duplication yet. So we'll have to just wait and see how they improve and develop their tracking, so that we can implement CAPI better. At the moment, I won't recommend jumping into it right now. Especially with the issue of de-duplication. Because the problem is it will over report the number of activities on ads manager. So even if you're only getting one opt-in, if de-duplication is not foolproof, then that means you'll be seeing two leads or two opt-ins on your CAPI.


Caroline Fenton (10:07):

Yeah. 100 percent. I think it's really important that's flagged as well. 'Cause as much as it might be easy to set up or easy enough to integrate CAPI, it's the de-duplication that really becomes the issue. And I guess another element of this is, this CAPI really got brought around at the time of iOS, when iOS 14 came into play, there was a lot of conversation around Conversion API. And I'm not sure how much confusion there is around CAPI replacing that data or basically solving the problems of iOS 14. But do you want to just talk a bit more about what's happened since iOS 14 and why it, maybe, is more important since then?


Hana Abello (10:51):

Yeah. So we know that the Pixel is getting less reliable. And with iOS 14, with the update, it meant that Facebook lost visibility on the activity of iOS users who have opted out of tracking. And so CAPI really helps send back more data and that just improves the optimization of the algorithm and the tracking side of it. So even though Conversion API, isn't an actual solution to the problems that iOS 14 gave us and more of justifying the additional feature, anything we can do to send can help with our campaign.


Caroline Fenton (11:40):

Yeah. That's great. I guess it's important to talk about the data and the data is still lost. It's not like CAPI actually solves this for us or does it? Does it solve the lost data?


Hana Abello (11:54):

I don't believe it does. So the API still has to follow the same rules as the Pixel. If someone has opted out of iOS tracking, then the API won't be able to report any data on that. Because they've completely opted out of it.


Caroline Fenton (12:15):

Yeah. Like it has no more visibility. It doesn't. Yeah. They can't see anything else that browser Pixel can't see. Apart from maybe when you're talking about cookie or ad blockers, has it got some benefit, in that case, if someone has an ad blocker turned on?


Hana Abello (12:30):

Yeah, for sure. I think that's where server side tracking or CAPI really helps is being able to track the data that is lost when someone has ad blockers on. Which is a lot of the browsers nowadays have add blockers on by default, right?


Caroline Fenton (12:50):

Yeah. Yeah, definitely do. I think it's really that privacy first world, isn't it? That we're heading in. It's trying to future proof everything. So it's just setting these things up now to future proof yourself against what might happen. And you may have heard chatting in the browser Pixel is disappearing. I don't think that's true. I think it's here to say for a little bit. But if it does, then CAPI is going to be what takes over.


Caroline Fenton (13:17):

So hopefully that was pretty helpful. We've covered what it is, how it differs from the current browser Pixel, and why you need it. We talked about if it replaces the Pixel, as we know it. And de-duplication of those events as they come in a little bit around how it's important since iOS 14. And just really it's a decision to make as to whether you try to go ahead and install it or not. And as Hana mentioned, it's not really necessarily that simple. Well, simple enough to install and set up. It's the de-duplication that can be an issue. Anything else to add ladies? All right. Thanks. Good to chat to you all.


Hana Abello (13:56):



Salome Schillack (14:00):

Well, I don't know if your brain is hurting, but my brain hurts a little bit after all that. I guess what I want you to take away from this episode is that whenever Facebook contacts you about Conversion API, at least you have some reference point or a podcast episode where you can go, "Hang on. What is that again?" And you can come back to it, reference it, listen to it again, try to understand exactly what Facebook is trying to achieve with Conversion API. And if you want to speak to your developer about CAPI to have that integrated into your account, put on your account, activated on your account, I guess is the right way to say it. Then by all means, do that do understand also that you do not have to have any fear of missing out. There's no FOMO. There's no scarcity. There's no urgency for you to use CAPI.


Salome Schillack (15:00):

And if you are just using what you've got and it's working for you now, just keep doing that. So then please just ignore the emails. Facebook is sending you to say, you need CAPI. You will need it eventually. But right now it's in very early stages of development and even Facebook themselves, aren't super clear on how to help people integrate CAPI into their accounts. Okay. Well, I hope that was a really useful episode to you.


Salome Schillack (15:29):

I trust that this will appeal to all of my super geeky listeners out there. And if today wasn't exactly your cup of tea, because it's a bit too technical. Let me know because I want to know if we should do more technical Facebook ad stuff or if you prefer other broader marketing things instead. Have a wonderful week and I'll talk to you next week. Bye. If you love this episode and you're a committed online course launcher who wants to learn how to grow your profits in your next course launch, and you want to know how to successfully scale your online courses business to seven figures and beyond. Then I'd love to see you inside the Launch Lounge.


Salome Schillack (16:12):

The Launch Lounge is the only community online that is dedicated solely to helping you develop every aspect of your online courses business. So you can build a business that scales. There's no one size fits all solutions here, just the right education you need when you need it. Coaching from our team of experts in different areas of launching and scaling and the best community on the internet. The Launch Lounge is your online course, building home. If you want profitable launches that scale your business to seven figures and beyond. To get on the wait list for our next enrollment season, go to shineandsucceed.com/launch. Thank you so much for listening. If you had fun, please come back next week and remember to hit that subscribe button. So you never miss the thing.

160. Navigating Fear and Reclaiming Personal Power With Claire Yee


160. Navigating Fear and Reclaiming Personal Power With Claire Yee

14 June 2022 | By Salome Schillack

This week’s episode is like a day spa for your brain!

You're busy working on your business, course, students, and family, but when was the last time you worked on yourself? 

If it's been a hot minute, then today's episode of The Shine Show is especially for you. 

Your potential for success, for more students, and more income comes down to one thing: showing up as your best self.

Want to know the secret to turning up as your best self and having an endless supply of magnetic energy that your community can't get enough of?


If you have been putting yourself last for way too long and neglecting the very brain that thought up all those brilliant ideas of yours… 

Stop what you're doing because, without some proper TLC, that same brilliant mind of yours also has the power to rip it all away. 

If you are constantly pulled in a million directions, unsure where to go next, having surges of 'pick me' energy, and feeling like you're always chasing students desperate for them to join you…..guess what!

We've got some mindset work to do.

And I've got the perfect gal for you to meet.

This week on the show, I'm joined by mindset coach Claire Yee who has helped thousands of women develop life-altering mindsets that help them achieve their dreams. 

Being around Claire is the equivalent of taking your brain to a day spa. So put on your fluffy robe, get out the cucumber slices and prepare yourself for some mind nourishment that will set you up for a relaxed, calm, and collected week! 

This episode will impact and change you for the better, so grab a cuppa and learn how to get back to being your best self!




PS: If you loved hearing from Claire and could do with more brain day spas on the weekly, join us in The Launch Lounge, where a whole community of experts will be cheering you on, step-by-step, as you grow your online course. Join the waitlist here.

When you subscribe and review the podcast not only does that give me the warm and fuzzies all over, it also helps other people to find the show.

When other people find the show they get to learn how to create more freedom in their lives from their online courses too!!

So do a good deed for all womenkind and subscribe and review this show and I will reward you with a shout out on the show!!


161. IOS Updates. Tools To Improve Performance

S&S_P159_WP_Thumbnail (1)

159. Your Launch Failed.. Now What?


158. Learning To Value Slow Progress Over Instant Success When Chasing Your Dreams with Diane Evans


157. 3 Things Every Online Marketer Needs To Know To Successfully Scale Their Online Course Funnels


156. Three Design Trends The Algorithm Loves with Jacqui Naunton


155. What To Fix First In Your Funnel


154. From Luxury Interior Design To Successful Online Course Creators with Sarah Cates of House Of Funk


153. Hiring an Integrator. How To Find The Right Person The First Time


152. How To Instantly Create More Freedom In Your Business


151. How I’m Slowing Down So That I Can Speed Up


150. How To Show Up As The Expert You Are And Overcome Your Imposter Syndrome


149. How To Find Your People Online and Finally Start Making Sales

Salome Schillack (00:00):
Hello, and welcome to episode number 160 of The Shine Show. Today's show is called Navigating Fear and Reclaiming Personal Power and I'm interviewing one of my favorite humans on this planet Claire Yee. Claire has been a student of mine for well over two years, and it has been such an honor and a delight every time I see her show up on one of those live Q&A calls, whether it was back in the day when she was an A-lister or now inside the Launch Lounge.

Salome Schillack (00:38):
Claire has built more than one successful business. But the thing that I love most about Claire is her beautiful, warm, welcoming smile, the incredibly beautiful way that she just speaks to every single person in the community and her wisdom, her knowledge. She really is like the mother to all of us inside the Launch Lounge and it's no wonder that she is our resident mindset coach.

Salome Schillack (01:14):
I want to share Claire's magic with you all and just to serve as a little bit of an intro, I'm going to read you her bio, but just know that these words are not enough to sum up who Claire Yee is. Claire's a mindset coach who has taught thousands of expecting parents over the past decade to bring their babies into the world with love, confidence, and empowerment. She loves supporting women to discover the strength and magnificence of who they truly are so that their life becomes a reflection of their heart's desire. Everything about that just gels so well with my vision and mission in life and so it is my honor and my privilege to introduce to you a tiny little bit of Claire magic, and I know you're going to love Claire just as much as I do as we talk about ways that you can navigate fear and reclaim your personal power in this journey of building your online courses business.

Salome Schillack (02:23):
Giving up your time and freedom to make money is so 2009. Hi, I'm your host Salome Schillack and I help online course creators launch, grow and scale their businesses with Facebook and Instagram ads so that they can make more money and have an even bigger impact in the world. If you are ready to be inspired to dream bigger launch sooner and grow your online business faster, then tune in because you are ready to shine and this is The Shine Show.

Salome Schillack (02:57):
Claire, thank you so much for being here with me today and thank you for being the mindset mother of all mothers, mother of dragons, mother of mindset for all of our beautiful Launch Lounge students. I'm so lucky to have you in my community and on the show today.

Claire Yee (03:17):
Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm just so excited and so overjoyed to be here. Can't wait to do this.

Salome Schillack (03:26):
So anyone listening to the show today who is perhaps feeling frustrated, feeling scared, feeling confused, feeling like they're being pulled in thousands of different directions, I'm trying to think about how all the feelings I had when I had to learn to trust my intuition and follow my heart in business. Anyone who feels any of those feelings is going to get so much value out of today because we're going to talk about really how to hear the voice inside, right, and tap into it. So before we dive into that, just tell everyone a little bit, who's new to you. Just tell everyone a little bit who you are, what your story is and how did you come to be the mindset coach for online course creators.

Claire Yee (04:16):
Thank you. So I always think, where do I start? Who am I?

Salome Schillack (04:24):
You have reinvented yourself so many times.

Claire Yee (04:27):
I know it's always ... Okay. Let's start there then. So all at the same time, it was the year 2008. I did my life coaching training. I became a mother and I started my spiritual journey. They all triggered each other off well maybe not so much becoming a mother, but it wasn't planned ahead.

Salome Schillack (04:47):
That's just triggering.

Claire Yee (04:54):
Yeah but working, going on all of those journeys all at the same time, stretched me in so many beautiful and challenging ways and building a business, being an entrepreneur and then also being a mother and having all of the experiences of a mother and how to look after this child and bring them up in a way that they're going to be their best selves in the world. That's always been my main goal as a mother is to always just be bringing them up as their best selves and to do that, I've had to work on how can I be my best self?

Claire Yee (05:44):
I'm not that when I'm not giving to myself when I'm tired and frustrated and stressed. I can't show up in my business and really connect with people properly and share my wisdom and help support others to transform when I'm also not being my best self. And so, that's where the spiritual journey has really supported me throughout all the threads of each area to discover who I am, what is my true voice. Every day, it's an unfolding and a reinvention and I'm discovering more and more about myself each and every day. I love supporting others to do the same.

Salome Schillack (06:32):
So good at it. You are so good at it.

Claire Yee (06:35):
Thank you.

Salome Schillack (06:37):
You have been on this whole online course journey with your own courses and you successfully sold online courses. So how did you pivot from online courses to mindset coaching?

Claire Yee (06:49):
I think, well, mindset coaching has always been a thread in what I've shared and what I've done particularly through the life coaching aspect of it. But, as entrepreneurs, we are the center of our business. We are always there. We've got a choice whether we do it from a space of really shining and showing up as our true selves or really struggling through it and focusing on what's not going right and what's not working. There's always different perspectives and we can be empowered in our choice in that. I think it's always been an integral part of everything that I've done. I don't know that there was a switching point.

Salome Schillack (07:42):
No, I hear you and that's very true. You did HypnoBirthing so I suppose there is always, it's not just in the journey that you discovered and uncovered and leaned into all the spiritual and the mindset things, but it's also in what you were doing that path that you were helping women go on.

Claire Yee (08:04):
Yes. To overcome fear, to listen to their own intuition, to their own voice, to be empowered in their decisions. It's so funny how many parallels there are between birthing and building a business.

Salome Schillack (08:17):
Oh, yes.

Claire Yee (08:20):
It's really fascinating.

Salome Schillack (08:22):
That is very true. That is very true. That horrible first three trimesters where you don't have anything to show for it but you sure feel uncomfortable. Ah! That is true.

Claire Yee (08:40):
And it's a big learning curve. Yeah, there's so many parallels.

Salome Schillack (08:44):
Yeah, when we're building online course businesses, I think anyone who is automatically attracted to building a business or somebody who is a creator by nature and I want to say, I think there's very few people who are not creators by nature. I think there's very few people who truly don't want to create or don't feel they're creative. But for us uber creatives who must start a business, who must give our gifts to other people, who must teach what we've learned and then we discover this magic of online courses, but we also come into it with this paradigm of what we learned in school, what our parents passed on to us, our definition of success, our definition of what's the right way to live, what's other people, how do we learn to just breathe and even begin to know where our intuition lies and how to trust it? How to trust it I think is a whole another thing, but how do we even begin to tap into it?

Claire Yee (10:06):
Oh, I love that question. So it's really a practice and life's experiences allow us the opportunity to practice. And so, really the first step, I suppose is awareness, becoming aware of how am I operating right now, feeling into what is that feeling and if it's a feeling that feels constrictive, intense, and you're going in the downward spiral, or you're just spinning, usually it's coming from a place of stress, but it's usually also coming from a place that's the way we've been taught to be whether that was from school or our conditioning growing up, whatever it's past referenced often when it's tense. Not always, we've great past experiences too, but it's referencing who we were previously when we feel really fixed and stuck and frustrated, and can't hear our intuition, monkey mind keeps going around and around. Yeah, it's that practice in that moment of that awareness, how am I feeling? If it's feeling that it's just accepting. Okay. It is what it is not judging it, because that just stuck in it.

Claire Yee (11:27):
Acceptance is the antidote of judgment and taking that breath, giving yourself that love, that compassion in that moment. What do I need right now? Maybe it's yeah, the deep breathing, going outside and just soaking in the fresh air, moving your body, dancing, doing something that really just shifts you out of, or just having a different conversation with yourself in your mind. There's so many ways that we can shift ourselves into a different state back into our beautiful, abundant creative state and that's where we are operating from our true self.

Claire Yee (12:04):
Our true self is our creative space and the more we play with that, it's a duality of the past way that we used to operate and the way that we can still show up. Then there's really that essence that flows through us that fuels our creativity, and as far as hearing it as our intuition, it's often got a real ... when our intuition is talking to us and whether you think of it as your higher self or your soul or however you think of that energy that you truly are, it's that who you are born as and who your potential of who you have come here to be, when you feel that voice within, it feels there's a strength to it.

Claire Yee (12:59):
The more you recognize it and just get curious about, does that voice feel constrictive, and tenses spirally, or does it feel free? Our intuition, our true intuition will always speak to us from a place of freedom and joy and abundance and prosperity and connection with others and with the universe and with nature. There's so much depth and beauty in the frequency of the voice of our intuition.

Claire Yee (13:27):
It's not always easy to hear. It takes practice. It's often that little nudge of thought that you have before the spiraling happens. You know, when you say I knew that. I knew that was going to happen. So when you're aware of it and the more we listen to that, the more we can start to cultivate our ability to hear it and to make our decisions based on it and to allow it to flow into everything we create.

Salome Schillack (13:58):
I love it so much. Yeah. It's that moment where you can go, "Yeah. Actually, I knew this. I knew this," and I guess we build up a fitness with that every time we go, "Oh, actually I knew that was the right way to go and I will trust it more." It's not a journey that you can arrive at. Right? It's a journey that just keeps unfolding.

Claire Yee (14:24):
Absolutely. It's an everyday journey. There's never a place that we get to where we're like, "We're there. We've made it," which is beautiful because then we'd be, I reckon quite bored with life once we got there, you know?

Salome Schillack (14:38):
Yeah. Yeah.

Claire Yee (14:40):
But the more we practice deciphering between what we're hearing and then following that intuition. Then you can look back and you can go, "Was I actually listening to my intuition or did I override it with the way I've been taught to think about things? Did I override it with worry or logic or what I thought was right based on how I was going to please everybody else rather than please myself?" There's so much that plays into the way we've been taught to operate, but we can untangle from that. It's just a daily practice. Any opportunity in the daytime when you need to make a decision, get curious and playful about it.

Salome Schillack (15:27):
Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead.

Claire Yee (15:29):
Yeah. I was just going to say in our businesses, it's so empowering to have this ability to listen to our intuition and to make those decisions based on our intuition. What are we going to call our program? What needs to be in our program? What doesn't feel right in our program? What kind of people is this for? Who do I want to bring onto my team? All these decisions that we make in our business, it's such a beautiful spiritual journey if we let it be.

Salome Schillack (15:56):
Yeah and on that journey then, Claire, I feel like that journey develops and evolves and as it develops and evolves, we become more self-sufficient. That's not the right word. I want to say, "We develop the ability to find our comfort in ourselves and not find our comfort and our validation in ourselves and to not need validation externally from either clients, students, mentors, the internet, social media," and we build up stronger boundaries for who we let into our worlds and how we let them into our worlds and that applies into our pricing and it applies into our customer service and it applies into our refund policies and it applies into how we build community and what the values are in those community. It's ironic that the stronger your boundaries then get, the more your business grows.

Claire Yee (17:09):
Yes, and I think what's beautiful about that it's the stronger you get in yourself and who you are and who you are being it's almost like the vibration that you're putting out is so much more enriched when you are following your own intuition, following your own voice, making decisions based on what works for you and creating from that space. You become so magnetic and your offerings become magnetic because people feel the true you and it's like, "I want some of that." When we stand in our empowerment and who we really are it's irresistible.

Salome Schillack (17:55):
Yeah. Yeah. It is. Like anything, when you are starting a new thing and you're learning a new skill, if you're just starting your business and you're still learning all these skills, it's not going to show up in some radical way for you because you're learning the skill. I think the key is it shows up the more action you take, the sooner it shows up. Right?

Claire Yee (18:23):
Yeah. Yeah and it doesn't all show up at once like you're saying. It's in the somebody connects you with this person or you hear that on a podcast and you hear it louder than something else and it goes, "Oh yes, it's that." And so, it's following those bread crumbs and listening to that intuitive voice that draws you towards those things that feel right. Yeah, it can be such a beautiful path in that way.

Salome Schillack (18:55):
There's something that I want to just explore a little bit. Sometimes that means burning down the house. There's the need to distinguish between our fire and our passion and our creativity and our drive and then we build a business from that. Sometimes those businesses can have run their course and we find that we've outgrown a part of it or we just don't want to serve this section of our community anymore or we want to go in a very different direction.

Salome Schillack (19:40):
I think often where I see that battle come into play is where people then have to go, "Yeah, but I love the money that comes in from this other thing." For me, I can definitely say I have so many times held onto things because of money and push down my intuition about it. I can look at that and go, "Yeah, that's a lesson I hope I don't learn again." Maybe I will and maybe I won't but sometimes it can be a challenge to lean into the intuition when the intuition is saying, "Move in a different direction than where the money's coming from."

Claire Yee (20:26):
Yes, because there's the mold isn't there that we have fitted previous versions of ourselves into? There's society's mold. There's the mold of what everyone thinks, who they think we are, but also who we used to think we were and who we used to be. But as we grow and discover more about who we are and our passions and what we're really here to share with the world and our voice, things do shift and change and evolve. That's where yeah, following the intuition isn't always the easiest path. It's often the path that is not as well worn.

Salome Schillack (21:10):
Yeah. It's mostly the path that's not well worn.

Claire Yee (21:15):
Yeah, but if you look at the people who have really created beautiful change in the world and in ways that really change the world, transform the way we live, they don't follow the path. They don't fit into the mold.

Salome Schillack (21:31):
Oh, yeah. They just trust the thing that's calling them.

Claire Yee (21:36):

Salome Schillack (21:37):

Claire Yee (21:38):
That's where we create the blue ocean offerings, because they're an extension of our uniqueness and nobody else can create that for us. That'll create that in the same way that we do.

Salome Schillack (21:53):
I'm so glad you touched on that because that so clearly answers the there's no competition ever. There's no competition ever. There is just no such thing.

Claire Yee (22:07):
Yeah. I mean, I feel like people can feel like there is when they're trying to just go, "Well, that works for that person so I'm going to do that and fit into that kind of a box," which it's what they think is the right way, but it's not authentically who they are.

Salome Schillack (22:24):

Claire Yee (22:27):
Yeah, and-

Salome Schillack (22:27):
No, go ahead.

Claire Yee (22:27):
When running our businesses from our authentic true selves then yeah, there's no other person like us and there will be the right people that will be drawn to us because of that.

Salome Schillack (22:40):
It will be the right people and I think it's easy to forget that when you're just starting out and you just want anyone. You want anyone to come and work with you, anyone buy my online course or when you get to six figures and you go, "Wow, I've hustled hard for these six figures and I really don't like what I've built," or you get seven figures and you go, "Yeah, this is great and this is not what I signed up for. I want to go and do something else."

Salome Schillack (23:13):
I love that we can distinguish between this passion and fire that we have inside our hearts. The thing that's our gifts and that we teach and the form in which we teach it. Because we often think the money comes from the form, but the money does not come from the form.

Salome Schillack (23:33):
I can tell everyone this. I have seen ... I literally had two clients who sells exactly the same program in exactly the same niche. One of them ran a launch, made a loss, the other one ran a launch and made half a million dollars and their marketing. Okay. The one's marketing skills is better than the other one, but you cannot tell me that that is not possibility that exists in that same realm for the second client. It's just the possibilities in that realm for both of them.

Claire Yee (24:13):
Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's interesting that people that we attract into our world, they will often feel our alignment and feel who we are almost before we even know it for ourselves.

Salome Schillack (24:29):
Yeah, you're right.

Claire Yee (24:30):
And before we've even are ready to announce it to the world, other people are drawn to us because they can see who we are even if we still feel like we are not quite ready to step out just yet.

Salome Schillack (24:42):

Claire Yee (24:43):
Yeah. But that's the magnetism, isn't it?

Salome Schillack (24:46):

Claire Yee (24:46):
It's the magnetism within being at the center of your offering.

Salome Schillack (24:51):
Mm. I love that. I love that. There's value in hearing how your students describe you or hearing how your students say why they're there. Because nine out of 10 times I feel like maybe we buy a course to learn a skill, but we hang around for either a person's warmth or the warmth of the community that they build.

Claire Yee (25:17):
Yeah, and the community they build, it really is an extension of the person that built the community that had that inspiration, followed their own inspiration, their own intuition to build the community in the first place. I look at the Launch Lounge and it's just such a beautiful reflection of you and everything you've created. You've just created the most amazing community and just such a joy to be a part of it.

Salome Schillack (25:45):
Oh, I thank you. I'm like a mama bear over that community and I will say I guess this is a great example. Five years ago I thought my superpower was Facebook ads and then I thought my superpower is marketing and then I thought, "Oh, okay, maybe my superpower is teaching." Today, I know my superpower is identifying potential in very freaking smart women. I am a badass at seeing smart woman and helping them tap into their potential. It's been a journey to get there, but I'm like, "Yeah, I can see I can do that."

Claire Yee (26:29):
Yes. I love that and it is a journey and that's the beauty of just starting where you're at. We don't need to know where we're going in the long run.

Salome Schillack (26:37):
Correct. Yeah.

Claire Yee (26:39):
You knew you had a skill in Facebook ads and you just started that there. Then you grew through that and you developed your next superpower and then your next superpower and each one unlocks the next like a little dominoes.

Claire Yee (26:55):
We don't need to see the final end version of ourselves when we first start. But it's following those breadcrumbs and just doing it. Getting out there, doing it and trying it and yeah.

Salome Schillack (27:16):
You have been such a part of this journey that I've been on because you've been in my community for two years now, more than two years. So I love that you have seen how I went from just talking about Facebook ads to now where I'm at the point where I almost never talk about Facebook ads. I talk more about my marketing and woo woo and just emotions and just our human experience as online course creators. How does someone who feel like they would love to be able to tap into their emotion more in their business? Is there something we can do? What are the questions we can ask ourselves to get curious and what can we do to really practice tapping into our intuition more?

Claire Yee (28:14):
Yeah. The first step is just really that practice of awareness and how does it feel? How is my body feeling? What are the emotions? Are they feeling constrictive, intense, or are they feeling expansive and allowing, and free and joyous? There's obviously the continuum. I like to think of it like a spiral. So you've got at the bottom of the spiral of the tension and the fear and the anxiety. And we do go up and down the spiral a lot in our businesses and some things we need to do. We just need to get over the fear, which we can talk about another time.

Claire Yee (28:53):
But when we're making decisions and following those breadcrumbs, it's really tuning in with how the body's feeling, the emotions. Emotions are energy in motion. They're speaking to us and the constrictive feelings are often those ones, if it's feeling constrictive, the decision, it's a good sign it's not aligned with your highest path.

Claire Yee (29:22):
If the decision to you feels when you feel into the decision and feel what that would create in your life and for the lives of others, if that feels really expansive and you feel relaxed and you're just breathing more deeply when you feel into it and your shoulders just relax, or you feel little heart flutters or bubbles of joy, that everyone senses it in a different way and the more we play around with it, the more we can fine tune our sense of it. That's where we just have this knowing that that's right. It's like, "I know that this is right."

Claire Yee (30:02):
There's a strength in your voice when you share it with others. It's like, "I know that this is my next step." It's not, "This could be my next step, but I'm not really sure and what about this or what about that?" We're not analyzing and questioning and it's just following that abundant knowing feeling. Does that make sense in the way I describe it just now?

Salome Schillack (30:29):
It does. It does. The abundant knowing, it makes total sense. It's you already know what you want.

Claire Yee (30:38):
Yeah, you do. And sometimes it's just taking the space to listen to it.

Salome Schillack (30:45):
Yeah. I was stuck on something a while ago and I have two business besties. They've both been on the podcast, Maria in Germany and Tony. They both said to me, "Just what do you want? What do you want? Just what do you want?" And I went, "Oh, I've been so stuck thinking about what I didn't want that I forgot that. To choose what I want. And I feel like our intuition sets in that wall of sometimes we forget that it's even an option. Leaning to what we want. Right? What we want.

Claire Yee (31:24):
Yeah, and it's often the thinking. When we're overthinking things, that's when we get stuck and it's that analyzing and thinking and that has its place, but listening, the intuition isn't in the head thinking, analyzing.

Salome Schillack (31:38):
No, it's not.

Claire Yee (31:40):
The intuition comes from a space within it. It can be the heart. It can be in the core. For me, it's like, I feel it in the core of my body and it comes from this inner internal core space rather than this thinking kind of space.

Salome Schillack (31:57):

Claire Yee (31:57):
Yeah, and when you just breathe, just a simple practice of breathing into your belly, expanding your belly, settling your central nervous system so you can feel it. What do I want? What feels right?

Salome Schillack (32:14):
Yeah. Yeah. What feels right? What do I want? I love that. I love that so much. Claire, if anybody wants to learn more about the work that you do, where can they find out about you?

Claire Yee (32:26):
So they can go to claireyee.com or motherglow.co.

Salome Schillack (32:31):
Oh, I love that mother glow.

Claire Yee (32:34):

Salome Schillack (32:35):
Oh, that's beautiful. Dot co just .co.

Claire Yee (32:37):
Yes. That's right.

Salome Schillack (32:40):
Oh, fantastic. Claire, you are a rock for me. You are a rock for the Launch Lounge students and I am just so lucky to have you as our guide along this path. So thank you so much for everything you give to the Launch Loungers and thank you for what you give to me and to everyone else. I have loved being part of your journey and I'm so grateful you're part of mine.

Claire Yee (33:03):
Oh, likewise. Thank you. I'm just so grateful to be a part of your world and a part of everything you create.

Salome Schillack (33:09):
Oh, fantastic. The best is yet to come.

Claire Yee (33:13):

Salome Schillack (33:14):

Claire Yee (33:16):
I love it.

Salome Schillack (33:17):
I'm so glad I could share even just this tiny little bit of Claire Yee with you guys. I have grown to love Claire like a sister. She's my sister on the other side of the ditch and for my American friends that means she's in New Zealand. We call that little piece of ocean between Australia and New Zealand, the ditch.

Salome Schillack (33:38):
So Claire shows up inside the Launch Lounge every other week and she is truly one of the cornerstones of what I would consider the success of the Launch Lounge and why so many women online course creators come to the Launch Lounge to really find a safe place where they can get support, mastermind, become friends with people who are like-minded, unpack their joys and sorrows and get all the support from the tactical like, "What the F do I do with my Facebook ads that are falling flat?" All the way to "I've lost my mojo. How do I get it back?" That's where Claire really shines.

Salome Schillack (34:26):
If you are one of those women and you're looking for a home, you're looking for a place where you can mastermind and hang out and get all the knowledge, all the training, but also the emotional support and the tactical support, then I want to invite you to come and join us inside the Launch Lounge. If you go to shineandsucceed.com/launch, get your name on the waitlist for the next time we open the doors to the Launch Lounge because you will know if you need to be there. You will know if this is your family and I would love to welcome you in.

Salome Schillack (35:05):
Of course, because it's a monthly membership, there is never any obligation. You can come and if it's not your jam, you get to go a month later. So if you are interested in getting your name on the waitlist, go to shineandsucceed.com/launch. Have a wonderful week. Bye.

Salome Schillack (35:32):
Thank you so much for listening. If you had fun, please come back next week and remember to hit that subscribe button so you never miss a thing.


158. Learning To Value Slow Progress Over Instant Success When Chasing Your Dreams with Diane Evans


158. Learning To Value Slow Progress Over Instant Success When Chasing Your Dreams with Diane Evans

31 May 2022 | By Salome Schillack

The business dream isn't always so dreamy. So how do you continue with confidence when it feels like everyone around you is so uncertain about where you’re going? 

This week we're going to get real vulnerable....

We're all about authenticity in The Launch Lounge, and yes, we do share the perceived wins. But we're also committed to keepin’ it real and sharing the perceived losses. 

The world tells us success should be instant. So it's no wonder many of us walk around feeling like utter failures because a 6 figure launch didn't happen immediately! 

It takes a while for things to start coming together.
It takes time before financial results start flying through. 

And it's all part of the journey, and it's a really good thing because it allows you to get crystal clear on the bits that are working (and ready to scale) and the bits that are wasting your time and resources. 

But I get it. At times, growing an online course can feel like eating dry cardboard. Data, patience, testing, trialing, zero sales....it can feel like all your hard work is going down the drain. 

But it's in this very moment when it all feels too hard; you need all the hope, support, understanding, and patience in the world to keep going because you're well on the way to seeing incredible results. Believe me, it’s going to happen!

It's also at this moment when a shiny, bright bajillion-dollar successful launch story can make you want to throw a hammer at your laptop and scream, WHEN IS IT MY TURN!

So this week on The Shine Show, we're going to get honest about the online course journey. The highs, the lows, and everything in between.

My courageous, brilliant student Diane Evans from PhotoFluent transparently & bravely shares her online course journey. Even though her course teaches travellers to take photos they feel proud of, her business journey has been anything but picture perfect. Rather than giving up, Diane has stuck to her vision and found a way to keep the hope alive, find confidence within herself, and stay true to her dream. 

If you're losing hope and feeling like things are taking forever to happen, this episode is exactly for you. Don't let the feeling of failure shape your future. Tune in now and hear Diane's story for yourself! It'll inspire you to keep going even when it feels tough.


P.S. The Launch Lounge doors are opening for a limited time only. One of the things that can make or break your success is the community you surround yourself with. A community that supports you, cheers you on, and understands a growing list is JUST AS exciting as a full bank account. The Launch Lounge will fast track your progress and show you how to get results without wasting time & money along the way. It seriously pays for itself. Spots are strictly limited, so make sure your name is on the waitlist! 

When you subscribe and review the podcast not only does that give me the warm and fuzzies all over, it also helps other people to find the show.

When other people find the show they get to learn how to create more freedom in their lives from their online courses too!!

So do a good deed for all womenkind and subscribe and review this show and I will reward you with a shout out on the show!!


161. IOS Updates. Tools To Improve Performance


160. Navigating Fear and Reclaiming Personal Power With Claire Yee

S&S_P159_WP_Thumbnail (1)

159. Your Launch Failed.. Now What?


157. 3 Things Every Online Marketer Needs To Know To Successfully Scale Their Online Course Funnels


156. Three Design Trends The Algorithm Loves with Jacqui Naunton


155. What To Fix First In Your Funnel


154. From Luxury Interior Design To Successful Online Course Creators with Sarah Cates of House Of Funk


153. Hiring an Integrator. How To Find The Right Person The First Time


152. How To Instantly Create More Freedom In Your Business


151. How I’m Slowing Down So That I Can Speed Up


150. How To Show Up As The Expert You Are And Overcome Your Imposter Syndrome


149. How To Find Your People Online and Finally Start Making Sales

Salome Schillack (00:00:00):
Hello, and welcome to episode number 158 of The Shine Show. Today's show is called Learning to Value Slow Progress Over Instant Success When Chasing Your Dreams, and I'm interviewing one of my favorite students, Diane Evans. Diane is a Launch Lounger. She's not just any Launch Lounger. She's a VIP Launch Lounger, and Diane is a photographer and the founder of PhotoFluent where she teaches travelers how to turn down the volume of their inner critic, develop the confidence to be creative with their camera, and take travel photos that capture their beautiful memories. She's been studying photography for over 20 years. It didn't always come easily to her, and she came back from way too many trips with bad photos, but once she figured out the technology and connected that to the creative aspect of making travel photos, she wanted to help other women travelers do the same, and she does that through online courses and coaching, in person retreats, her blog, and her YouTube channel.

Salome Schillack (00:01:09):
She and her husband, Neil, lived in France for a year where she honed her photographic storytelling skills. Now, they live in Sacramento, California with their sweet dog, Maggie, but Diane dreams of the day they can move back to France where she plans to host PhotoFluent retreats for women travelers who want to connect with their creativity and cameras. And I have to say, I really have to commend Diane for sharing bravely and vulnerably today on the show her journey of ups and downs. If you're in the Launch Lounge, you know that it really matters to me that we don't just share perceived wins. We also share perceived losses. We share the up and the downs because it's all part of the journey, and it is just false to pretend that it's all up, up, up all the time. So, without further ado, let's listen to my interview with Diane Evans.

Salome Schillack (00:02:14):
Giving up your time and freedom to make money is so 2009. Hi, I'm your host Salome Schillack, and I help online course creators launch, grow, and scale their businesses with Facebook and Instagram ads so that they can make more money and have an even bigger impact in the world. If you're ready to be inspired to dream bigger, launch sooner, and grow your online business faster, than tuning because you are ready to shine, and this is The Shine Show.

Salome Schillack (00:02:48):
Diane, thank you so much for joining me. I am very excited to share your journey with all of the listeners today.

Diane Evans (00:02:56):
I have to say I'm thrilled to be here, and it was always kind of one of my dreams ever since I started listening to your podcast to be here and here I am.

Salome Schillack (00:03:04):
Yes. Here you are, and you're one of my all time favorite. I mean, I say that about everyone, but you are one of my favorite students. You're in the Launch Lounge and you're in Launch Lounge VIP, and you are just tenacious. I love that about you. And so, today, I have invited Diane on the show to tell us her story, and we are going to talk about the ups and downs of getting a business off the ground and what that takes. So, Diane, just, I think you are at heart an entrepreneur, but tell us a little bit about how you moved from day job to entrepreneur.

Diane Evans (00:03:50):
It's funny that you say that I'm at heart because I have never really believed that. I hear people say, "I've been an entrepreneur since I was nine years old because I had a lemonade stand," and that wasn't me. I went from high school to college to job. I was an occupational therapist, and I didn't really like it, but I just kept doing it because it paid the bills. So, I would switch jobs a lot, and I tried a lot of different areas of healthcare. I was in project management. I was a clinical specialist. I did sales. I did it all in healthcare, and I didn't like any of it, but I didn't have the courage to push myself out because that is what I had experience in. That's what I had my degrees in, And so I just kept doing it, and it took me into my fifties to finally say-

Salome Schillack (00:04:41):
By the way, I cannot believe, when I read you're 50, you're in your late thirties. So, whatever you're drinking, I want some of that.

Diane Evans (00:04:49):
Thank you. Oh, I do love you so much, Salome. Yeah, and the sad thing too is my dad did not like his career, and I always was determined I will not be like him. I will not do what my dad did and just continue on in a job he didn't like for his whole life, and yet, all of a sudden, I thought, "I've done that." And so, when I decided then it's time, it was really my late forties where I decided, "Okay," and I had the support. Before I was single, I was alone, and I just had to support myself, and when I got married and we started talking, that's when I decided photography is my true love and that is what I wanted to do. You don't make a living as a photographer. In my head, that's what I've heard. You need a paycheck, you need benefits, and all of that. But I just decided it was time to figure it out because some people do, right?

Salome Schillack (00:05:54):
Yeah, yeah. Oh, I want to dive into so much of what you just said, so much. Firstly, I am a hundred percent with you in that I never believed I was an entrepreneur because I followed such a traditional path, and here's why I think today if you ask me am I a born entrepreneur, I would say hells yes, but if you asked me a few years ago before I had success as an entrepreneur, before I learned how to make money, before I learned how to find my audience and sell to them, before I learned how to turn courses into money, I would've said the same thing, no, I'm not because I've never sold a thing in my life. I always feel icky when I'm selling. Well, back before, I was like, "Selling is icky," and yet I was a salesperson, just like you, pharmaceutical rep.

Salome Schillack (00:07:00):
But here's what I want to say to you, and I hope this serves a lot of the listeners out there, the reason I look at you and I go, "Diane Evans, you are born entrepreneur," is because people like you and me, we are too damn creative. We are too damn creative for traditional jobs. We are too rebellious. We cannot be contained. We cannot be spreadsheeted. I remember feeling so spreadsheeted, spreadshited. We cannot be told not to do new things. We cannot be told not to listen to the burning passion in our hearts. And if you grew up in a family where you were modeled you get a job, you get a solid income, you go to uni, you get a degree, you study, you have a professional job like I was, then entrepreneurship is a hard skill to learn even if you're a born entrepreneur.

Salome Schillack (00:08:31):
There are people who are just not made for this. You and I were made for this, but there's so much unlearning that has to happen, and so much learning that has to happen, skills, just plain skills that needs to happen that it's easy to think, "Well, I'm not a born entrepreneur because this is so hard." And what I want to say to you is no, no, that's just part of the journey. You, Diane, are a born entrepreneur.

Diane Evans (00:09:04):
I just had a little aha moment when you said all of that. That is why I didn't like any job. I thought I just picked the wrong profession, but it's because I did, I felt stifled and trapped. I felt like they were sucking my soul out every single day, and I just kept thinking, "Something's wrong with me," but you're right. I was meant to be an entrepreneur. I just didn't know how to do that.

Salome Schillack (00:09:30):
Yes. I had the exact same experience. It didn't matter what I did with the exception of when I did musical theater, and I'll talk about that in a second as well because I want to touch on that. Every job, it didn't matter how, I would literally just start the job in order to win at it, and as soon as I won at it, I was bored. I needed the next thing to move on because we are creators, and here's not a difference between a creator and an entrepreneur. The only distinguishing factor is creators don't all create to turn it into capital, but all entrepreneurs are creators because they create in order to turn it into capital. So, there are areas in your life where you can create and it doesn't have to turn into capital, but when you can create and you can turn that into capital, you get to live from this burning fire in your heart, and it gets to pay your bills, supply your external world because that's all that money does is it just supplies our external world, but that's pretty important.

Diane Evans (00:11:06):
Yeah. Right.

Salome Schillack (00:11:08):
Yeah. So, I wonder how you feel about that.

Diane Evans (00:11:15):
I think, yeah, I feel like I've made this big shift just having this conversation with you because I do feel like I just had no... I didn't have the skills to do it. I didn't know I was supposed to do it, and now suddenly when I decided to do it, like you said, it's a steep learning curve to figure all that out. I'm used to having it kind of spoon-fed to me, and sitting at a desk, and having everything structured which is safe, but like you, I'd get bored. I'd get bored and I'd switch jobs. I mean, like single year, I'd switch jobs and I'd have a new one, and then as soon as I'd get to the place where I think, "Okay, I get this," boom, I had to have another job.

Salome Schillack (00:12:00):
Yeah, yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

Diane Evans (00:12:05):
It's terrifying to not know what's coming and what you're doing. I love learning, so that part of it, I love. Just all the software and the systems and all that, it's been fun, but I don't have a paycheck coming in while I do that. So it's stressful. I lived in Boulder, Colorado for a while and there's a mindset there. I think of an entrepreneur as someone who creates software and then sells it and makes millions of dollars. This online business, course creation, chugging along, plugging along, making a little bit here, making a little bit there, that's not what I envisioned at all, but that's also an entrepreneur, just like a lemonade stand is, right?

Salome Schillack (00:12:56):
Correct. Yeah, correct. I don't know if this is true for you, but it definitely, if I look back at the time, the three years that I put in when I started the business and the three years that it went nowhere financially or... Well, no, it actually did go somewhere. It went into $40,000 debt. That's exactly where it went, but the learning went somewhere else, the learning. But if I think about how I felt back then, I would not have described myself as an entrepreneur because I felt like success is a precursor to calling yourself an entrepreneur, and that's just not true. That is just not true.

Diane Evans (00:13:43):
And it's hard to respond to people when they say, "How is your business going?" I don't even like to talk about it because when they say that, I want to say... I don't know. What's the right answer? I'm making profit. You can't say, "I have a great email list. I'm building this incredible Facebook group." People don't understand that. They want to know are you making money at it, and so for the first few years, I don't even know how to respond to the question.

Salome Schillack (00:14:14):
Yeah. Yeah. That's a good question. That is a good question. How do you respond to that? I remember feeling exactly the same way, and my answer was always, "It's going great."

Diane Evans (00:14:24):

Salome Schillack (00:14:25):
It's fantastic.

Diane Evans (00:14:28):

Salome Schillack (00:14:28):
And in my heart, I'd going, "Yeah, I'm doing a great job building my audience, but I haven't sold a thing."

Diane Evans (00:14:36):

Salome Schillack (00:14:38):
But I wouldn't tell them that.

Diane Evans (00:14:40):
People talk about imposter syndrome, and I always thought, "I don't know that I feel that," because I feel like I really know my subject matter. When I teach photography to travelers, I know what I'm talking about, and I love it. So, I don't feel like with my students I have imposter syndrome, but boy, does it rear its ugly head when somebody asks me about my business.

Salome Schillack (00:14:59):
Yeah, because somewhere in there, there's still a belief that it has to make money in order for it to be real.

Diane Evans (00:15:07):
And a lot of money.

Salome Schillack (00:15:08):
Yeah, and a lot of money.

Diane Evans (00:15:10):

Salome Schillack (00:15:12):
Yeah. Do you think that's stopping you?

Diane Evans (00:15:16):
Oh, I've done so much mindset stuff. I think there's whole lot of things stopping me, but yeah, I think it's a marriage. That's what drew me to you, Salome, is that you're the logistics and the fact person married with woo-woo.

Salome Schillack (00:15:35):
I love that.

Diane Evans (00:15:36):
And that's what I loved about your podcast, and that's what I love about your approach is it's not all just visualizing and believing you can. That's equally as important, but I also have to learn how to make it happen.

Salome Schillack (00:15:51):
I love that. That's so funny. You're the second person who's described me that way in the last month. What did you say, the data person married to the woo-woo person? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love the woo-woo, but let's substantiate it with data.

Diane Evans (00:16:04):
Right. I need facts, yeah.

Salome Schillack (00:16:07):
Yeah. Yeah. I need facts too, but I also know that the woo-woo is factual. It's just, I can't see the fact, but [inaudible 00:16:17].

Diane Evans (00:16:16):
Right, in a different way, right.

Salome Schillack (00:16:18):
In a different way, yeah. Okay. So, how long ago did you start PhotoFluent?

Diane Evans (00:16:25):
About two and a half years now.

Salome Schillack (00:16:27):
Okay. What's that journey? Tell us, how did it start? Tell me a little bit about your two and a half years of getting it off the ground.

Diane Evans (00:16:37):
You know, I had this beautiful moment where I started a local photography business, and I quickly realized I wanted something online that would give us location independence because I want to move to France. So, that's my goal. And so, I started hearing from friends and family, "I got this nice camera, I'm going on these great trips, but I'm not getting photos that I like." And all of a sudden, it was like this beautiful woo-woo moment that said, "You are meant to do this. You are meant to teach women travelers how to develop confidence in their creative skills with the camera." Boom, there it was. It became so clear, and then the name, everything just fell into place like it was meant to be, and then the falling into place immediately came to a screeching halt.

Diane Evans (00:17:29):
I came to you through DCA, like most people, with Amy Porterfield. I started my online course creation, and the website and the email service part. There's so many moving parts and pieces, and I got all of that going, and I keep moving forward, I keep progressing, but I'm still not making a lot of money at it. So, there's also been this kind of emotional rollercoaster of I'm a failure. You see these success stories on podcasts and think, "Well, they had a $10,000 launch the first time out. They had a $100,000 year their first year, second year, and I'm not, so what's wrong with me."

Diane Evans (00:18:12):
So, there's been, I would say, equally as much website messaging, marketing, training, learning as mindset, and I'm not a failure, and I am an entrepreneur, and I can do this, believing in myself, pushing past the fear of failure, all of that stuff. It's so complicated. I work harder. I'm more stressed than I was with any job my whole life, but I love it more which doesn't even really make practical sense, does it?

Salome Schillack (00:18:45):
I understand that perfectly. I understand that perfectly, and it's one of my absolute values. It's something I promote a lot is the idea that we should not just be talking about the financial wins because that is not the journey. The journey is not just about hearing about the person who made a $100,000 in the first year or the million-dollar launch. The journey is about the journey. The success is the failure. The failure is the success, and it's this traditional belief that we have that we have to succeed straight away. That comes from school. In school, you got a grade. You took a test and you got a grade and you knew very well how you fared in that test, whereas with this, no one's grading us along the way. No one's telling us if we're doing it right along the way.

Salome Schillack (00:19:46):
We have to go all the way to close to get to our result, and then if the only way we grade ourselves is on how much money I made, of course, if it didn't yet sell, you give yourself an F. But what if you give yourself an A-plus for analyzing the right data and knowing where to make the change for next time? That would look a little bit differently.

Diane Evans (00:20:28):
Yeah, I'm in a new phase of my business, and that's what you've helped me get to is we're looking at this as data. I'm going through launch right now, and I'm detached from the results, and I always say that going in, "I'm detached from results. This is just data collection," but I never have been. I'm always devastated if I don't get the results I want.

Salome Schillack (00:20:49):
Of course.

Diane Evans (00:20:50):
But this time I feel like I really am. It's going to be okay. If this launch doesn't work out the way I want it to, then you and I are going to dig through that data. We're going to figure out, okay, how does it have to look different next time, and the next time, and maybe I don't do a webinar next time. Maybe I do a challenge. Whatever, there's a thousand different options, and finally, I feel like I'm not alone, and that's part of the journey too is I felt very isolated, and I joined Facebook groups, and I would take a course, but it's still like thousands of people in one group. And now, I finally feel like I'm not alone, and I do have the support, and I would say to people starting off, that's something you should get immediately to find your group of people that can support you, and it takes a while to find that.

Salome Schillack (00:21:42):
Yeah, it does. It can take a while. Do you know what I love about that, what you said? I think this is, like you said, where the woo-woo and the data comes together, when online course creators, we all, and me included, when I started, I just wanted someone to give me a simple recipe, right?

Diane Evans (00:22:05):

Salome Schillack (00:22:06):
And so, we sign up for all these courses that are pitched as the simple recipe, the step by step, the paint by numbers of how to do this thing, and we do the thing with the paint by numbers, and it doesn't work, and then we sign up for the other paint by numbers. So, maybe a webinar paint by numbers didn't work for me, so let me sign up to this other course where this person is promising me results with a paint by numbers challenge, and then that doesn't work, and then you sign up for the paint by numbers Facebook ads course, and then you run out of money, and that doesn't work.

Salome Schillack (00:22:49):
But the thing is the online courses are pitched at us as a step-by-step formula, and you and I both know there's nothing step-by-step formula about this. There's trial and error. There's underlying principles, and if you understand the underlying principles of how audiences move through funnels, and you're tracking the data of what happened as your audience moved through your funnels, then you can look at it and go, "I got a result." I can look at my data and understand my result as numbers, as only numbers, and then it's okay to be disappointed then if it didn't make money because we are still having a human experience.

Salome Schillack (00:23:46):
So, we should be emotional about that, and disappointment and anger and frustration are going to come with it, but that's not all there is. There is also, okay, now let me detach from this and look at the data, and I think that's the one thing most people do wrong is they are never in these step-by-step courses taught what data to track and how to interpret it and how to know how this group of people moved through a funnel to get to the other end, and they can't interpret that those numbers and make a decision, and so I love that you're seeing that and that you're seeing the value of that.

Diane Evans (00:24:28):
Yeah, I actually worked with a coach because you do need somebody to help you. You don't know what you don't know and to get into a Facebook group and ask questions, I didn't even know what questions to ask. So, I remember saying, "I have a landing page and I have an audience and I have an offer, and I have all these pieces, and communication to that audience. I don't understand which piece isn't working. Help me figure out which piece isn't working." And she said, "Oh, I don't really look at all of that. I just try it, and if it works, it works, and if it doesn't, I try something different." And I thought, "That's not how I roll." I'm not super analytical, but I got analytical in me, and I need to know what's broken and how to fix it because there's so many moving parts and pieces, and it can get very overwhelming.

Salome Schillack (00:25:23):
Right. And I will share with you, I have worked with clients who makes $2 million a year and they think like that. You can get to $2 million a year throwing spaghetti on the wall, but I will tell you can't get beyond that, and if you have thrown spaghetti on the wall to the point of $2 million, that's a lot of spaghetti to wade through to figure out what actually got you where you are. So, anyone who is starting, who is starting to learn how to analyze data from the beginning, you will be in a far better position to make decisions as you scale your business.

Diane Evans (00:26:09):
And this lady had a really successful business too, successful as far as... But I always thought, "But if you took the time to look at your numbers, it would be probably much more successful, and I think you'd waste less time."

Salome Schillack (00:26:23):
Yeah, absolutely.

Diane Evans (00:26:24):
Be more efficient.

Salome Schillack (00:26:25):
Yeah, and that's the whole point for me is we need to waste less time and waste less money.

Diane Evans (00:26:33):

Salome Schillack (00:26:33):
How much money do we waste in those early years?

Diane Evans (00:26:37):
I'm a total course addict, and I wanted the formula, and maybe that's the years in corporate because you usually have a formula and that's all you get to do.

Salome Schillack (00:26:48):
Well, you also have a formula in school, right, because you have a teacher who gives you a curriculum and tells you memorize this.

Diane Evans (00:27:04):
I was very good at school. Yes.

Salome Schillack (00:27:05):
And if you memorize it and you can regurgitate it on a test, then you succeed.

Diane Evans (00:27:05):
Yeah, and I was very good at school. I memorized. I took the test. I was a good tester. I got good grades. So, but in some ways I'll tell you, it really set me up for failure because I was considered, quote, smart, and that was really the only thing that I was, an attribute as a kid. That was really my only thing that I was complimented on growing up is you're smart, but I'll tell you what, then I get out, and I'm not successful. I can't keep a job. I didn't get fired, but I kept getting a new one. So, all a sudden, I'm smart. I go to college because that's what smart people do, but I'm not successful. I don't have a job that I've become a VP yet, or I've climbed a ladder, or I don't have any outward signs of success, and so it was very disappointing and kind of surprising. I thought if I was smart, that would translate into success, but it doesn't. Creativity, finding the right match for you maybe, I don't know, but that was always kind of my shame point.

Salome Schillack (00:28:15):
Hmm. I see that. I hear that. Yeah. I think there's this, I think your creativity and your smart is two circles, and they are moving closer and closer and closer to each other, and when they meet each other and they integrate with each other, I think you have no idea how successful you can be.

Diane Evans (00:28:44):
Well, I'd love to hear that.

Salome Schillack (00:28:45):
Well, the beauty of it is while you're on this journey that you're on now, the day you get to the point where you check the box for what you measure as success today, when you get there, it's not going to matter to you.

Diane Evans (00:29:02):

Salome Schillack (00:29:03):
Yeah. You're going to be detached from it.

Diane Evans (00:29:08):

Salome Schillack (00:29:09):
So, you started a local photography business which turned into teaching women, women or anyone, how to take better photos.

Diane Evans (00:29:20):
Anyone but mostly women. When it comes to photography, we learn very differently, and most of the instructors are men and they almost all focus on the equipment, the gear.

Salome Schillack (00:29:34):
Sound like a dude.

Diane Evans (00:29:36):
They want to talk about lenses and equipment, and I've been to so many photography workshops and I just think, "Oh, why are we talking about lenses?" or they'll ask me which lens I use and I think, "Ugh." I say, "I don't know. I don't remember the numbers of all of that."

Salome Schillack (00:29:51):
It just works.

Diane Evans (00:29:52):
Yes, and they focus on the technology and the camera settings, and it didn't help me in my learning process. So, I have a very different approach in that we talk about mindset stuff and confidence and believing in yourself and not judging yourself based on other people's stuff, and we can do the technology. I'm going to hold your hand and we're going to walk through it together, and you're going to get to the other side, and it's going to make sense, and I'm not going to assume you know it up front, like a lot of them do.

Salome Schillack (00:30:23):
Yeah. Oh, I love that. That's beautiful. And your students, where do they travel because they're all taking travel photos, right?

Diane Evans (00:30:30):
Yeah. All over. All over. I mean, I did a webinar last week and someone was going to Antarctica and somebody Germany and somebody Maine in the United States. So, really all over the world, and I love that I have students who live all over the world. That makes it fun too.

Salome Schillack (00:30:52):
Yeah, I was going to say I can probably travel down my street and take some travel photos.

Diane Evans (00:30:58):
Yeah, absolutely. And you should before you go on your trips so that you're ready.

Salome Schillack (00:31:04):
So that I'm ready, yes, and so that you see how beautiful your own [inaudible 00:31:08] is.

Diane Evans (00:31:08):

Salome Schillack (00:31:09):
It's one of the gifts COVID gave me. We were blocked into our state into Queensland. We couldn't go out of Queensland for two years, and so the Schillacks love to travel, but we're always going overseas, and we had to travel inside our own state, and we have the Great Barrier Reef here.

Diane Evans (00:31:27):
I know, I know.

Salome Schillack (00:31:28):
We have the Daintree Rainforest here which is supposed to be the oldest rainforest in the world. It's beautiful. So, it's kind of like in your backyard. So, let's continue talking about your journey. So, two and a half years, and it's changed from a local business to an online course. What other big events were there in that two and a half years that some of the listeners will go, "Yes, that's where I'm at now."

Diane Evans (00:32:05):
Well, let me tell you one big event is I started my online business and rolled out my first online course in March of 2020.

Salome Schillack (00:32:16):
Oh I did too. I sold a course that opened on 20th of March 2020. It was not just you.

Diane Evans (00:32:25):
And in the travel industry of all places to be.

Salome Schillack (00:32:27):
And in the travel industry.

Diane Evans (00:32:30):
And so, my first launch, I thought, "Well, did it not do well because I did something wrong or because COVID hit and nobody's allowed to travel?" Who knows? Yeah.

Salome Schillack (00:32:40):
They're not even traveling to work, yeah.

Diane Evans (00:32:44):
I had this vision of doing onsite or in person workshops and retreats with PhotoFluent, but I thought, "I want people to have the skills before they get there." So I thought the perfect combination is to have online courses and in person retreats. So, when COVID hit, I thought, "Okay, great. I will start with the online portion." So, that's what I did is start with the online component and found out I really loved doing online courses. It's fun. I enjoy doing it, but again, it's so complicated, and there's so much to implement and put together and to find your right audience and your right offer.

Diane Evans (00:33:30):
So, I've really grown through that, and I'll tell you what, Salome, I think one of my biggest growth factors right now is not just learning the you call it profitable customer journey, and that has been huge for me to figure out where do my people come from and how do they move through my ecosystem, but to go from this emotional roller coaster of entrepreneurism, whatever word we're going to call that, business ownership, to having a steadier belief in myself and in my business, even without the proof, and people kept saying, "You have to believe it without the proof," and I thought that doesn't even make logical sense.

Diane Evans (00:34:25):
But one of the quotes I keep close by is that successful people hang on when everyone else has let go, and I read it every day, and I know that it will happen, and I've done enough meditations and visualizations and mantras to know in my heart that it will.

Salome Schillack (00:34:45):

Diane Evans (00:34:46):
And the proof will come, soon, I hope.

Salome Schillack (00:34:53):
I know. I love that. I felt like I quit three years into it when I went back to my job, and I remember feeling the shame, feeling the failure. Literally, whenever I thought about it, my cheeks would flush, my stomach would turn. I felt like I had to justify my choice for going back to work to any stranger who asked me how the business is going. It was such an emotionally negative experience, and I felt like such a failure, and in hindsight, looking back at it, it was the best gift I could have given myself because going back to my job meant I could pay off the $40,000 debt I'd accrued. It meant my husband was not under as much financial stress because he was going gray really fast because of my business, and he's very supportive and we are going to talk about supportive husbands because I know you and I have very similar husbands who are supportive and they want to see the money, but that feeling. So, let's talk about successful people... Say your quote. What's your quote? Say that again?

Diane Evans (00:36:14):
Successful people hang on when everyone else has let go.

Salome Schillack (00:36:18):
Yeah. So, what does hanging on mean for you?

Diane Evans (00:36:23):
Well, I think when you said you felt shame, you were embarrassed because you went back to work, I've certainly considered getting some regular paid work, and I also am embarrassed. There's a lot of shame around I feel like I'm failing, when I'm not making money. So, sometimes I feel like I'm hanging on and it's just idiotic. Who hangs on when they don't make any money? Who just keeps going and doing this same thing over and over? But then I think, "You're not doing the same thing over and over." You shift, you try something new, you shift again, you try something different, but-

Salome Schillack (00:36:57):
I'm a idiot.

Diane Evans (00:36:58):
Yeah. Well, I am too. I mean, I know that-

Salome Schillack (00:37:01):
Yeah, you can sign me up all day for idiot.

Diane Evans (00:37:03):
... there would be a whole lot of people that would look at my business over the last few years and think, "Why the heck are you still doing this?" including sometimes my husband. We've had that conversation quite a few times where he is supportive, he wants it for me, but he sees how hard I work. He's never seen me work this hard because I never have, and yet...

Salome Schillack (00:37:24):
You've never been happy, yeah.

Diane Evans (00:37:26):
So, I think he gets frustrated with the fact there isn't money coming in, but also he gets frustrated with how hard I work and how little I get back from it right now. I believe it's going to come. All of this is going to pay off, but he doesn't have that mindset. He believes what he can see right in front of him, and so I feel like I constantly have to justify in my own head and with him that I'm hanging on and it's going to be worth it.

Salome Schillack (00:37:56):
Yeah, it's hard. It's hard when you have to justify it and you're almost hanging on believing it yourself.

Diane Evans (00:38:09):
Yes. Yes, it is.

Salome Schillack (00:38:13):
You're a hundred percent in on the fact that this is going to happen and I'm committed to this, and you have moments of doubt and then you have an external voice who also says, "Really? Really? Really?" And my husband's very much the same. He's very supportive, and I remember wanting to throw him out of a window every time he said to me, "Just show me the money. I believe you're going to get there, show me the money." I wanted to punch him.

Diane Evans (00:38:48):

Salome Schillack (00:38:49):
And even now, I've shown him money. I've shown him money, and even now I talk about my next big dreams, my next big goals, and he goes, "Yeah, show me the money." And I go, "You just buckle in, dude."

Diane Evans (00:39:02):
Right. Oh, I will.

Salome Schillack (00:39:04):
Yeah, challenge accepted. You know?

Diane Evans (00:39:08):
Yeah, and I think that's the shift that's happened for me lately over the last couple months is that I didn't quite believe it either. I wanted to, I did the mantras, the visualizations, all the mindset stuff, and I told myself, "I believe it." I journaled I believed it. But every time he would say it out loud, I think, "Oh, he's right." And now I think, "Buddy, you better get yourself ready because we're going to move to France." Once my business is successful, we're moving to France, and he says it like, "Oh, okay, sure. We're moving to France." And I think, "Oh we are, we are. You better start learning your language, buddy, because we are moving to France."

Diane Evans (00:39:51):
And now, I can kind of deflect his sarcasm and his disbelief because I've built a shield of belief around me.

Salome Schillack (00:40:00):
Oh I love that. I love that, and you know that letting go and finding a job is not the same thing.

Diane Evans (00:40:10):
Yes, I do, and you've helped me realize that too because I love to hear people's stories and their journeys, and so when I hear over and over people's success stories, it just makes me feel bad about myself. So, I want to hear. I'm sorry that you went through that, but I love to hear that you were in it three years and then went back to work, and I think, "Okay, so she's still here doing it," and you're successful, and so if I have to go supplement with some income somewhere, that's okay, and maybe it'll even take the pressure off.

Salome Schillack (00:40:42):
You're right.

Diane Evans (00:40:42):
PhotoFluent's not going anywhere. I love it too much. It's too much a part of my soul, and he doesn't believe this or know this, but I think he feels like, at a certain point if I fail, I'll go get a job, and we will say, "Oh, well, we tried."

Salome Schillack (00:40:56):
Nah. That's just doubled down.

Diane Evans (00:40:57):
No, it's not going away.

Salome Schillack (00:40:59):
That's doubled down. I started working from 8:00 to midnight every night, 8:00 to midnight. After I put the kids to bed, I just worked on it. I want you to know that letting go, letting go and finding a job is not the same thing. Letting go and taking a break is not the same thing. Letting go and shifting gears is not the same thing. Yeah, we just have to persist. The person who let go is the one who stops trying. The one who completely gives up, that's the person who lets go, and I think there's also, there's letting go also in trying one business, then trying a whole nother business, then trying a whole nother business, then trying a whole nother business, I would say that's also letting go because you got to try one thing until it works, and particularly in the photography space, there's enough evidence that there is a market for teaching women how to take good travel photos. So, it's not like you're trying to invent, I don't know, underwear for dogs.

Diane Evans (00:42:20):
We had that.

Salome Schillack (00:42:20):
It sells? Really? Damn, I'm in the wrong business. You know what I'm saying?

Diane Evans (00:42:34):
Yeah, I do.

Salome Schillack (00:42:38):
I think maybe there's a space to sit and explore, well, what does letting go mean.

Diane Evans (00:42:43):
Yeah, because not everybody has the luxury to sit there for three years and lose money.

Salome Schillack (00:42:47):
And it is a beautiful luxury that we have.

Diane Evans (00:42:50):
It is. I'm incredibly grateful, very grateful for that. It hasn't been easy because it's not... He's not over there just saying, "Honey, you lose as much money as you possibly can."

Salome Schillack (00:43:02):
Go ahead and take my vacation money and spend it on more Facebook ads.

Diane Evans (00:43:08):
And then there's the whole shame around that. I've supported myself my whole life, and now, suddenly, I'm dependent on another human being financially, and it does not feel good. The amount of pressure I put on myself to be successful right now is another thing I have to really work through and release and meditate through. He's not putting as much pressure on me as I'm putting on myself.

Salome Schillack (00:43:39):
I can see in the year that we've worked together how you've let that pressure go. I can see how that has... In a year ago, it was like, "I must get this right now."

Diane Evans (00:43:56):
And I was holding on so tight I was strangling it.

Salome Schillack (00:44:00):
Yeah, and I think you're going to see the more you let it go, the easier it becomes.

Diane Evans (00:44:06):
And that sounds good in theory, but when people tell you that you have to let go, you think, "Let go? I have to try harder." It's such a balance though.

Salome Schillack (00:44:19):
It is, and it's a bit like an onion. I feel like I have peeled that onion over and over again because it's a life lesson. You're learning it in a very acute way right now, but three years from now, when you're rolling in dough, you're going to be learning it again because your business is going to shift into a new phase and you're going to be like, "Oh damn, I'm needing to let go again."

Diane Evans (00:44:44):
Right, because then I'll have a team, and I'll be trying a whole new ventures, yeah.

Salome Schillack (00:44:48):
And I'll tell you, the resilience you're learning now, everything you're learning now is tenfold bigger when you have a team, and the other day, I said to someone, who did I say it to? Oh, it's this spiritual coach that I'm working with, my woo-woo coach. I said to her, "I feel anxiety because I am responsible for 10 people's mortgages," and she goes, "Hold up, are you responsible for their mortgages? That's a mountain that you put on your shoulders for no reason." I went, "Okay, yeah. Yeah, they are responsible for their mortgages. I am responsible for running a profitable, well-managed business that pays them a salary." But in my head it's like what if they can't pay their mortgage, take on their whole lives. But it's not that, that makes it hard, and it makes it troublesome, and it makes it survival, whereas if it's joyful and fun and light and we get to pay them a delicious salary, so much different.

Salome Schillack (00:46:11):
So, your online course you're launching right now.

Diane Evans (00:46:16):

Salome Schillack (00:46:17):
Yes. How often are you going to launch this?

Diane Evans (00:46:20):
Well, I don't know, Salome. You tell me. Well, I launched it the end of last year, did not have a successful launch. So, I kind of I stepped back and I evaluated what went wrong. I really did some more research, heavy research into kind of parallel businesses, similar models, and so I repackaged, and I looked at my offer and my audience, and so this is kind of taking what I've done before and putting it out as basically a new offer. So, I take the results and then from there I decide what do I do next. I had it all mapped out for the year. First I'll launch in this day, and then I at launch at three month, and then, and then, and then you said, "Let's just look at one step at a time." That feels good. Maybe every month. There's so many different models of do I launch it every month, do I keep a live program going and everybody's on the same track. So, there's a lot of different things I'm evaluating. It just depends what next week brings.

Salome Schillack (00:47:35):
I love that, what next week brings. Every year I record a podcast why I don't do annual planning and it stinks.

Diane Evans (00:47:45):
I listened to that and I loved it, yes.

Salome Schillack (00:47:46):
Yeah, it's this, it's because when you're inventing things, how are you supposed to plan because you're still inventing, and for my business, for a long time, the agency side, I couldn't plan for that. It was just a machine that has to turn over the same thing over and over and over, and so for the content piece, it was like, sure, we can plan some things, but we're also going to need to not plan some things because it's all very flexible and very dependent on the program, and I feel like there's not enough people that say this, that there's a time in your business where you don't plan, you just execute. Okay, I hustle.

Diane Evans (00:48:30):
And I think Russel Brunson maybe is the one who does launch after launch after launch after launch, and you learn how to launch that way. You learn how to get good at webinars.

Salome Schillack (00:48:40):
You do.

Diane Evans (00:48:40):
And when you first said, "Maybe you'll launch again next month," I thought, "I don't know what that looks like," and I thought, "That's okay. Well, future Diane will figure that out." And my mantra right now is I am open to creative solutions, and so I feel like I'm not planning out too far in advance, and we'll see where each step takes me to the next place, I guess.

Salome Schillack (00:49:08):
I love that, and it is this action energy that's going to get you to results faster because the more action you can take with a clear goal in mind, I'm not saying just spaghetti on the wall action, clear goal in mind, data-driven decisions, but quick action, the quicker you'll get feedback, and the feedback, sometimes that feedback comes in the form of money. Sometimes it comes in the form of not money, but it's always a result, and it's always feedback, and you just got to take it on board and work with it and do it again as quick as possible.

Diane Evans (00:49:49):
Yeah, and next week I have a conference, an actual in person conference at women in the travel industry so I'm very interested in where that will take me because I know Amy Porterfield talks a lot about how that made such an impact on her business is meeting with people in person, and conferences, and getting referred to different things, and collaborating with people, and I have not had the opportunity to do that since my business started because of COVID. So, now, I'm trying to get out there and talk to more people, and that I think will also break open some new opportunities.

Salome Schillack (00:50:23):
Absolutely. I love that, and you can just sell your course to people who are ready to buy it from you. It was an in-person conference and it was Amy Porterfield's in-person conference that eventually helped me then quit my job and be able to work as a full-time ads manager.

Diane Evans (00:50:44):
Yeah, I remember now hearing that story too where you went to conferences really regularly and felt like that was a kind of a factor that pushed your business forward.

Salome Schillack (00:50:55):
Absolutely, absolutely. For me, so 2017 was the year I went back to my day job. So, I started the business in June, July. 1st of July 2014, I started it, and it had various iterations of a lot of different things. Some of it made a little bit of money. Some of it made not much money. It was a lot of work, just like you, trying to figure out. I feel like you have a lot more figured out than I did at that point. And then in 2017, I went back to my job, and I was back in that job from February 2017 until December. At the beginning of December, I got on an airplane from Perth where I lived then which is on the western side of Australia, so that means I have to get on like a six, seven-hour flight from Perth to either to Sydney or to Auckland, and then from Sydney or Auckland to LA, and then from LA to San Diego. So, 30 hours door to door. Yeah, 30 hours door to door.

Salome Schillack (00:52:04):
I remember my husband, the only way I could go to this conference is if I could convince my husband that the business can pay for it. So, I listened and I heard there was a US travel show on where they promote traveling to the US, obviously run by the US to Australians, and I went there, and I went to every ticket booth, every airline, and compare tickets, and I ended up getting a ticket for a thousand dollars which today, I'm looking at flights to New York right now, and they're two and a half thousand dollars. But so a thousand dollars, and I remember my hand literally shaking as I handed my credit card for the business over for that thousand dollars ticket, but as soon as I had it, I was like, "I'm going to America. I'm going to meet Amy Porterfield. I'm going to meet all of these other mentors I've had." Rick Mulready was there. David Duncan was there. Jasmine Star was there. Who's the podcasting guy? His name escapes me. They're all going to be there and I'm going to meet them, and I did, and I signed up four clients while I was there, and I came home and I quit my job, and I gave my boss finger, and a month later, I was self-employed and I was making like five grand a month.

Diane Evans (00:53:24):
Yeah. I feel like it could be a big shift for me as well because I'm going to have the opportunity to collaborate people for those in person workshops and those retreats, people that are already doing travel, and it's all women in travel. I mean, it's the perfect place for me. So, I feel like I have this great base now. COVID kind of helped me in that way because I probably would've been a little too scattered at first, but it really helped me. I had to sit at home like the rest of us, and I had to work on the online piece, but now I really understand that, and now I'm ready. I'm ready to spread my wings, fly.

Salome Schillack (00:54:02):
Ah, you're going to spread your wings and fly, all the way to Paris.

Diane Evans (00:54:05):
All the way to Paris.

Salome Schillack (00:54:06):
Oh, I can't wait to hear all about this live event that you're going to. I feel like that you're right, that is going to be... And all of the hard work you've done that you're not necessarily seeing the results of yet, when you meet those people in person and they see this asset that you've already built up, it gives you so much credibility, and it gives you instant connection with the right people, and they're going to be there, and they're going to be like, "Yes, Diane, I'm ready. Show me how to take photos."

Diane Evans (00:54:40):
And I know how to talk about it now. If I would've went two years ago when I signed up, I wouldn't have been able to have the same conversations.

Salome Schillack (00:54:48):
Yeah, now you know the copy inside out, you know exactly what their desires are, you know how to speak to their pain points, you know exactly how to sell this to them. So, that's very exciting. Is there anything else? What else would you say to anyone who is working on getting their business to a place where it is profitable and where they can tell all those external voices, "Look, it's working"? What would you say to them?

Diane Evans (00:55:15):
I think don't give up I feel is an obvious piece of advice and a luxury, but like you said, there's different ways of giving up. So, if you believe it in your heart, keep doing it on some level. And the other thing that I think has held me back my whole life is fear. And the other quote I have on my, I have to look at my board, everything you want is on the other side of fear, everything, and don't let fear of failure of whatever hold you back. If you dream it, if you want it, then you have to be uncomfortable every day, and do it anyway.

Salome Schillack (00:55:59):
Do it anyway, and do it anyway. Do it anyway, and pick up. I think, for me, the fear thing because that also doesn't go away, you know?

Diane Evans (00:56:09):

Salome Schillack (00:56:10):
It's just onions. You just, you discover a new layer of fear. For me, it's been identifying when I'm procrastinating because I'm scared.

Diane Evans (00:56:23):
Yes, that's one of my tools of choice, or habits of choice.

Salome Schillack (00:56:30):
Yeah, I love [inaudible 00:56:30].

Diane Evans (00:56:30):
Yes, procrastination. I could clean out an inbox like nobody's business when I'm procrastinating.

Salome Schillack (00:56:36):
Oh yes. Oh yes. Oh yes. And it's funny how that has... When I started the business, I procrastinated by creating content for social media. Now, that's not an issue for me anymore. I don't create much content for social media anyway. I believe social media is just, it's a way to connect with people, but we don't need social media as much as a lot of people would have us believe, but now, it's other things. It's oh, the client still needs this thing, or I haven't analyzed that webinar, or I haven't... It's amazing the things your brain will present to you that it's like, "Oh, but the ducks aren't in a row yet. So, let me just put it off a little bit more."

Diane Evans (00:57:23):
And I love to create so I can work on my branding, my color scheme, how many color schemes I've picked because they're not just the right one, the graphic for that email. Picking gifts can take me long.

Salome Schillack (00:57:39):
Yes. That's a favorite one of mine too. Yeah.

Diane Evans (00:57:43):

Salome Schillack (00:57:44):
Yeah, yeah. I have heard someone talk about procrasti-branding.

Diane Evans (00:57:49):
Yes. Oh my gosh.

Salome Schillack (00:57:52):
Yeah, that's [inaudible 00:57:52].

Diane Evans (00:57:52):
Yeah. I really was thinking I need to revamp my whole website and finally I thought, "Let's do that next year. It's fine for now."

Salome Schillack (00:58:01):
It's fine for until you make a million dollars.

Diane Evans (00:58:05):
Yeah, I say next year, but kind of like when you say, "I don't want to go to the gym. Okay, I'll just go for 15 minutes," but then you always stay for half an hour or an hour. I say that, "Maybe we'll work on that next year," it might be 10 years before I redo my website.

Salome Schillack (00:58:18):
It might be. And you know what? It'll be fine.

Diane Evans (00:58:20):

Salome Schillack (00:58:20):
It'll be fine. It'll be fine. Yeah, fear. What are your best tips for overcoming fear?

Diane Evans (00:58:30):
You know, for me, a lifesaver has been meditation, and I suffered from depression when I was younger, and I don't think that's something that just goes away. I've just, I've really learned how to deal with it, live with it, and meditation is one thing that throughout my life that has really saved me from... I've had kind of anxiety-driven depression, and meditation is the thing that keeps me grounded and keeps me stable and keeps me... Because it's not just the 10 minutes or the 20 minutes that you sit on the cushion, it has so much that carries over into your life, and it just helps you start to recognize the thoughts that creep in there. Meditation, you're kind of swatting them away. Go away. I'm meditating now.

Diane Evans (00:59:17):
But then you learn, they creep in there, and you are not your thoughts. They're not true. They're your mother's voice or your teacher's voice or wherever they came from, and that, that has really helped me, and to develop those mantras that are kind of the old standbys that help me. So, when I wake up in the middle of the night, that's the time when I get the most fearful and the most anxious and the most panicky, and so I have mantras that I can just soothe myself with, calm myself down, kind of let go of those fears.

Salome Schillack (00:59:54):
Love that. You're a master. That's fantastic. That's wonderful. I also feel like it's this snowball effect of the meditation is the fitness, it's that fitness of learning, like you said, I am not my thoughts. I am just the thinker of my thoughts, and I can allow a thought to come up and allow it to be there without believing it.

Diane Evans (01:00:23):
And we can live with discomfort. As humans and in our culture, in the United States, you're not supposed to be depressed or sad or anxious. So, you take medication to get rid of all of that, but it's actually okay to feel. I've read a lot of Buddhist teachings, and you kind of get in there sometimes and just give it a hug. You don't have to analyze the heck out of it. You don't have to be happy all the time. You don't want to be sad all the time obviously or anxious all the time, but sometimes I just let that butterfly rumbling in my gut that's not comfortable, I just let it be there, and I meditate, and I journal, I do all the healthy things I know to do, and then all of a sudden, I realized it's not there anymore.

Salome Schillack (01:01:07):
Let it be. Yeah, just let it be there without judging it, yeah.

Diane Evans (01:01:13):

Salome Schillack (01:01:13):
Ah, so powerful. It's fantastic.

Diane Evans (01:01:17):
We've covered a lot of ground today.

Salome Schillack (01:01:22):
we have. I feel like I'm going to have to change the name of this episode, but I don't know, like a whole lot of everything with Diane, but I think that's the beauty of getting to know each other is we really can talk about this stuff because we live it. We live it, and it's important. It's not the step by step, paint by numbers to growing your email list.

Diane Evans (01:01:48):
No, I sure wanted that. I really wanted the formula, and then I wanted somebody to come in, look at my business and tell me, "This is what's not working, and once you fix that, it'll be successful." But that's not happening.

Salome Schillack (01:02:04):
And then the universe is like...

Diane Evans (01:02:07):
Right. Oh, you have a lot to learn.

Salome Schillack (01:02:09):
Yeah. No, it's not going to be like that. Diane, thank you so much for sharing all your wisdom and your journey and your ups and downs with us, and I am really honored to be on your journey and be part of your journey, and I can't wait for so many women photographers to have your course in their hands and for your name to be a big name in travel photography. It's happening. It's happening. It's happening. We're making it come true because you're doing everything right.

Diane Evans (01:02:49):
Well, I want to thank you for inviting me to be your guest, and I want to thank you for having the podcast and inspiring me and so many people because you really are that perfect marriage between analytical and woo-woo, and that's what we all need.

Salome Schillack (01:03:09):
I love it.

Diane Evans (01:03:10):
So, thank you.

Salome Schillack (01:03:11):
You're very welcome. Thank you so much.

Salome Schillack (01:03:14):
I hope that interview with Diane really inspired you, and if you love this episode and you're a committed online course launcher who wants to learn how to grow your profits in your next course launch and you want to know how to successfully scale your online courses business to seven figures and beyond, then I'd love to see you inside the Launch Lounge. The Launch Lounge is the only community online that is dedicated solely to helping you develop every aspect of your online courses business so that you can build your business to scale with no one-size-fits-all solutions, just the right education you need when you need it, coaching from our team of experts in different areas of launching and scaling and the best community on the internet. The Launch Lounge is your online course building home if you want profitable launches that scale your business to seven figures and beyond. Get on the wait list for our next enrollment season. Go to shineandsucceed.com/launch. That is shineandsucceed.com/launch.

Salome Schillack (01:04:31):
Thank you so much for listening. If you had fun, please come back next week, and remember to hit that subscribe button so you never miss a thing.


157. 3 Things Every Online Marketer Needs To Know To Successfully Scale Their Online Course Funnels


157. 3 Things Every Online Marketer Needs To Know To Successfully Scale Their Online Course Funnels

24 May 2022 | By Salome Schillack

This week on The Shine Show, we’re tackling the number one mistake holding most online course creators back (and what to do if you’ve already made it)! 

But first, we’re heading to my kitchen.

Recently I set out to bake a cake. I had all my ingredients lined up; my apron was on, the oven was ready, and the instructions were simple (no double tray situations - if you remember back from #quesadillagate). 

What could possibly go wrong? 

I diligently measured all the ingredients and mixed them nicely into a .....runny, disgusting tasting goop!


My culinary expert and cooking extraordinaire husband Emil came home to the goopy mess and was determined to solve the case. 

Flour, check. 

Butter, check. 

Eggs, check. 

Half a cup of baking powder, check. 

"Wait, wait, wait. Half a cup of baking powder?" He burst out laughing. It was on this day I learned a very important, soapy-tasting lesson on the difference between baking soda and baking powder. 

In the wrong proportion, this one little ingredient caused my whole cake to be an unwanted, overlooked waste of effort. 

But if I had simply tweaked that one ingredient, my cake would have been a huge success, and the whole family would have queued up, ready to savor a slice. 

The same goes for an online course. You might have all the right ingredients, but if one thing is slightly out of proportion, your whole online course cake could turn into a giant, unwanted, cyber soap-tasting mess. 

Here's the good news. 

There's no need to abandon the kitchen and give up on your course creation dreams. By simply tweaking the ingredients and using the correct measurements, you could be back on track to serving delicious, warm, chocolate online course cake that your students will be raving about. This week on The Shine Show, I share the three things every online course creator MUST do to scale their course successfully, including the number one mistake most online course creators make (and how to avoid it). 

Ready to learn the secrets behind launching profitably, scaling your business, and creating a ton of moolah? 




P.S. The Launch Lounge is where it is all at if you are a serious course creator who is ready to learn how to find more of your ideal students online, launch more profitably and scale your online courses business to 6 and 7 figures without following someone else’s paint by numbers, one size fits all, fly by night strategy. If you are ready to get down and dirty with your funnels and get the feedback you need to implement changes that will help you scale, join us in The Launch Lounge today. Enrollment closes at the end of this week. 

When you subscribe and review the podcast not only does that give me the warm and fuzzies all over, it also helps other people to find the show.

When other people find the show they get to learn how to create more freedom in their lives from their online courses too!!

So do a good deed for all womenkind and subscribe and review this show and I will reward you with a shout out on the show!!


161. IOS Updates. Tools To Improve Performance


160. Navigating Fear and Reclaiming Personal Power With Claire Yee

S&S_P159_WP_Thumbnail (1)

159. Your Launch Failed.. Now What?


158. Learning To Value Slow Progress Over Instant Success When Chasing Your Dreams with Diane Evans


156. Three Design Trends The Algorithm Loves with Jacqui Naunton


155. What To Fix First In Your Funnel


154. From Luxury Interior Design To Successful Online Course Creators with Sarah Cates of House Of Funk


153. Hiring an Integrator. How To Find The Right Person The First Time


152. How To Instantly Create More Freedom In Your Business


151. How I’m Slowing Down So That I Can Speed Up


150. How To Show Up As The Expert You Are And Overcome Your Imposter Syndrome


149. How To Find Your People Online and Finally Start Making Sales

Hello, and welcome to The Shine Show. Today we're going to explore three things every online course marketer needs to know to successfully scale their online course funnels and I'm happy to announce that we have for the first time in over 6 months opened the doors to The Launch Lounge. The Launch Lounge is the only community you want to belong to if you are a serious online course creator and you want to scale your courses business to a million dollars. You can go to shineandsucceed.com/launch to learn more about The Launch Lounge 



Hello, my friends. It is lovely for me to be here with you. I am recording this on a beautiful fall Friday afternoon. It is quiet in my house. My husband said he's going to go pick up Mila, my husband, Emil. He has gone to pick up Mila who is my oldest. She's 10 years old and Elle, my youngest, is going for a play date this afternoon. I have got that wonderful Friday afternoon quiet that allows me to sit down here and hang out with you and record podcast episodes for you.



Now, very often on a Friday afternoon Emil is not at home or if he's working from home, which he's doing less and less now because he's back in the office, I pick up the kids from school. And when I do, Mila has this sneaky but genius way of getting me to take her to The Bottom Shed, which is a deli, and like a green grocer slash deli slash coffee shop. That is between the school and our house. And The Bottom Shed makes amazing carrot cake and that kid loves their chocolate cake.



And so often on a Friday afternoon, she would get in the car and she would give me the puppy dog eyes and convince me to stop between school and home at The Bottom Shed and pick up cake. And I tell you, it does not take too much of her to get me on board with Friday afternoon cake. As a matter of fact, I actually quite love it not just because I still have that Friday afternoon, I'm going to treat myself sort of feeling that I guess starts when we have jobs where we kind of make it through the week and we reward ourselves with some kind of a treat. I suppose that's some cultural conditioning that I will hold onto, because I enjoy my Friday afternoon cake.



But that kid knows exactly which buttons to press to get me to go and buy cake from The Bottom Shed on a Friday. And she also knows that mom is not going to bake any cake. I tried baking a cake. You know if you've been a listener of the show for a while, you know I was going to call it a love, hate relationship with cooking, but it's probably more of a hate, hate relationship. Cooking hates me and I hate cooking and I'm working on it, but I'm not trying to work on it too much. I'm just cruising by loving the fact that Emil absolutely lives for cooking, which is our saving grace otherwise we would live on, well, I would say healthy salads I can pick up from the deli, but I'm sure there would also be a much larger Uber Eats bill.



The other day I tried baking a cake and got ... This is embarrassing admitting it. I got mixed up between the baking powder and the baking soda. Did you know baking powder and baking soda are two different things? Of course you did. It is two very, very different things. And it should have given me a clue that I'm on the wrong track when it said I need to add half a cup of baking soda. And I looked at the baking powder container and thought, geez, that's almost half of the container, that's a lot.



And so instead of using baking soda, I poured in half a cup of baking powder. And needless to say, the cake did not even make it into the oven because the butter was just really, really super weird. And when Emil arrived to question my choices that I had made when I was like, "What is going on with his butter?" He cracked up laughing as he does. He laughs with compassion. It always entertains me to see how much my absolute, I don't know, what would you call it? My inability to achieve anything in the kitchen provides him with endless entertainment. He thought it's really funny when he pointed out to me the recipe actually says baking soda, not baking powder. And that there is a giant difference. So lesson learned.



That's why Miller knows not to ask me to bake a cake. She knows to have me go to The Bottom Shed on a Friday afternoon. And I provide my husband with endless entertainment with my baking antics. I hope I'm entertaining you with my baking antics too. It makes for such good educational metaphors, all of my baking stuff ups, which leads me right into what I was going to teach you today, what we were going to talk about, what we're going to explore together. Today is a little bit more of a teaching podcast. I like to mix it up a little bit to give you some interviews with people just like you, just like me and just like the people we admire and aspire to be like, or to achieve things that they have achieved.



And I also try to add in some teaching where I can, because I feel like knowledge is power. And we meaning me and my team sit on so much knowledge because we have this front row seat to so many successful and not so successful online course launches being the people who run the ads for these online courses, having been those people for three years.



Today I want to teach you a little bit of a model that I discovered that I stumbled upon, that I created when I was super frustrated with seeing people use their hard earned money to run ads for their launches only to end up with nothing at the end. And I'm talking about experienced launchers who were able to build large organic followings. And by large I mean, maybe 30,000 or 100,000 people on Instagram or YouTube and make money from them by selling their courses and then hire us to run ads for them only for the ads board to fall completely flat, that's one example.



The other example is people who hire us or other ads managers straight out of the gate first time launching and spend a ridiculous amount of money on their launch, whether it be webinars or challenges or whatever it might be. And again, to get to the end of that launch and to not have made any money is devastating. It is so devastating for me that I have closed the doors in the agency. A while ago already I closed the doors in the agency to any new launchers.



We will not run ads for new launchers because what I have come to learn is that the surefire way of losing your money is to over spend on ads where your offers haven't yet been proven, or you're not sure you have the right launch mechanism. What do I mean by that? What I mean by that is there are three key levers or three key ... You know what the inside of a watch look like, the clock, where there's one circular, what do you call those things that move? And then it moves the other one levers or systems or pulleys, or I'm forgetting the right word. But you know what I mean? Those circular things that the one turns and then it turns the next one. And that one turns the next one. And that one turns the next one.



There are three key levers that needs to be pulled in order to make money. But not just in order to make money, in order to have a scalable business. When you are building online course businesses and these three things are this. You might want to write this down, or come back and write it down if you're driving or if you're on the treadmill. Those three things are number one, you need traffic, you need an audience, you need people. You already know this because you probably started your business on social media. You probably started your business grabbing your phone and starting to just speak into your phone, creating reels, creating a newsfeed, going live, posting videos on YouTube, starting a podcast. You already know you need traffic.



We're going to unpack traffic a little bit more. You already know this is the second lever, you need an offer. Not just any offer, you need a good offer. You need an offer that your ideal customer cannot resist. An offer is different from an online course. Selling an online course has more to do with your offer than it has with your actual course. So if you've been taught how to create an online course, but you haven't yet been taught how to create an offer, then that's the next thing to focus on. If you've been taught to create an audience or traffic, but you haven't yet been taught how to create offers, then that's what you need to focus on next.



Number one, you need traffic. Number two, you need offers. Number three, you need the right launch mechanism for the price point at which you're selling your course. I often tell the students in A-Lister that the secret formula to making money online is audience plus offer equals money. And in a very simple format, it really is just audience plus offer equals money. But there is this third element that comes in and that is your launch mechanism. And it has to do with how that traffic moves through your funnel from being a free, I have never heard of you relationship to becoming a paid student who loves you and cannot sing your praises enough and tells all their friends to come and buy your course too.



Now let's unpack all three of these things in a little bit more detail, traffic, offers and launch mechanisms so that you can understand how these three levers work together and how they have a relationship with each other and how you are not just pulling one of the three, but you've got to pull all three in the right relationship to each other if you want to build a profitable online course business, and if you want it to be scalable.



The first thing, let's talk about traffic. Over the Easter holidays, my family and I went to Melbourne. It was so nice to be able to get out of Queensland. Queensland is the state where we live and we have pretty much been locked in Queensland for two years. We've done a lot of vacationing in Queensland, which is beautiful, one of the most beautiful places on earth in my opinion, near the Great Barrier Reef and most beautiful beaches.



We're just so lucky to live in such a beautiful part of the world. But I have ants in my pants when it comes to traveling, so I need to explore new places. After two years of exploring my backyard, I was very happy that I get to get on a plane and fly somewhere domestic again. We're flying internationally soon too. We're going to Fiji in June, but it was just nice to be able to leave the state and go somewhere else.



We booked tickets to Melbourne. Melbourne is another city in Australia, for those of you who are not familiar. Melbourne is the cultural capital of Australia. Everything that is cool happens in Melbourne, the food for anybody who loves food, who loves wine, who loves beer, who loves chocolate and who can just walk around inner city looking at all the little lane ways and the beautiful wall art and the tiny little tucked away whiskey bars. It is just the coolest, coolest place. I love Melbourne.



We went there for a week and my husband, Emil, he got us tickets to the Formula One. Formula One is car racing, but it is car racing ... I mean, I know when I say car racing you think like hot cars, it's those funny looking cars with the giant wheels. Look up Formula One if you don't know what it is, because it's actually quite a fascinating sport. We went to the Formula One and poor Melbourne, I think Melbourne is recorded as being the most locked down city in the world during COVID. Because if I ask them how long were they locked down, most of them just go, "We don't even know." They're all in shock still. A lot of my team members live in Melbourne.



But I think it's something ridiculous like 500 days, more than 500 days. That is just under two years that the poor people of Melbourne have been completely locked down in their homes. Melbourne is on the loose now and we can go there and Melburnians can go out. They're all still a little bit gun-shy. But the Formula One, there were 400,000 people at the Formula One. 400,000 people were at the Formula One. That is a lot of traffic. Took us an hour in an Uber and we paid $150 for the Uber one day from the Formula One back to our hotel and it would've been a 15 minute walk.



We sat in an Uber and paid $150 for the Uber, which could have been a 15 minute walk. But at that point, our kids were ugly tired, so we made the sacrifice. I don't think my kids would have ... I think they would've reported me to childcare abuse, whoever, if I made them walk that 15 minutes. But I want you to imagine for a minute all of those traffic, all of the traffic from 400,000 people all coming in through one or two gates. And then imagine for a second that as those 400,000 people come in through the gate, that they are funneled out of the racing stadium, let's call it a stadium or the racing place. As they come in, they're funneled out again. As they come in, they just drop out again.



You might say there were 400,000 people who came to the Formula One, but if they all dropped out before they made it to the stands where they could sit and enjoy the race, that traffic would just be a giant exercise in moving people. Now, how does this relate to your funnel? Traffic is just traffic. Unless your traffic converts to sales. And for your traffic to convert to sales, you need offers that convert. Otherwise it is just a giant exercise in moving people around. That is the number one mistake I see new launchers make or I see people making who spend a ton of money on ads, on webinars, without testing their offers first.



Next time you think about spending a ton of money, sending people to your sales page or sending people to a webinar for an offer that you have not yet tested, hear my voice in your head, you are just moving people around. Let's look at a couple of different sources of traffic and how you can be moving people around. You can have organic traffic. Organic traffic comes from social media, or it comes from SEO or it comes from guest appearances on other people's shows or podcasts or events, live events. Organic traffic are all the things that require your energy. And when we start a business and we don't have a lot of money, we use our energy. Our energy is what goes into creating momentum.



We hustle, hustle is not a bad thing. Hustle is exactly what you need to do at the start. If you get stuck in hustle and you never get out of it, that's a bad thing, but that's where paid traffic comes in. As soon as you start building a bit of an audience and understanding what your audience wants from you, you can create some engagement ads. And now you're using engagement ads to build engagement on your social media, so you can cut back a little bit on posting as regularly.



But the whole point of all of this is really to get people onto your email list. You might hustle hard at the beginning to use social media to get people on your list. And then as you start making a little bit of money, you start replacing that energy that you are pouring into social media with your money. You start replacing your energy with your money by running list building ads.



Paid traffic includes all of your Facebook and Instagram ads. Maybe you're starting to run some ads on LinkedIn or Twitter or TikTok or somewhere else. And you could even be running some ads, search ads on YouTube or Google. YouTube and Google Ads or search ads. And they work a little bit differently than Facebook and Instagram. Facebook and Instagram ads are what we call interruption marketing because you're putting an ad in front of someone and you're interrupting them when they're scrolling through the newsfeed, which is why your ad needs to grab their attention.



When you think about traffic and you think about bringing your 400,000 people to the Formula One, I want you to remember that when you start out, you're going to use your energy. But as you get money, you're going to use your money to replace your energy. You spend only enough time on social media to direct them to either your large format content, which is your podcast or your blog or your video blog and to your email list. That's where you want to build relationship with your audience.



I am here right now hanging out with you building relationship. And the 40 minutes that I'm spending with you is worth a thousand Instagram posts, right? You can see that. Because you're listening to me and you can go, "I really like what she's saying." Or I don't really dig this chick, I'm going to go find someone else. And it's both as cool. At least now we know where we stand, right?



And I want to build relationship with my audience here on the podcast and in my email list, when I'm emailing them, when I'm emailing you, hopefully you're on my list. I'm going to pour my energy into that and I'm going to use my money to build my list. I'm going to use my money to get engagement. Traffic alone can never get you more money. Traffic is just traffic. Getting more people to your sales page is rarely the problem. So often I hear people say, "I just need more people." You don't need more people, you need a better offer. You already have people. They're just not saying yes to your offers. So let's talk about number two is offers.



So you know on a Friday afternoon when Miller says to me, "Hey mommy, you want to go get cake at The Bottom Shed?" Nine times out of 10, we stop at The Bottom Shed and we get cake. And the kid is genius because her timing is right. She knows my guard is down on a Friday afternoon. She also knows my sugar craving is up on a Friday afternoon. The pain point, she's got my pain point right, because she knows it's Friday afternoon, mommy's going to want to relax. Mommy's going to want to chill. Mommy's tired. Mommy feels like she deserves a treat after a long week. And she knows my desire, she knows. She only has to mention Bottom Shed carrot cake and my mouth starts drooling. She's making an offer at the right time. She understands my pain point and she understands my desire. Those three things make up a good offer.



And that's when she can look at me on a Friday and say, "Hey mommy, let's go get cake." And the answer is always, yes, let's go. When we start our online courses businesses and we start launching, we spend more time thinking about what we want to teach in our online courses than what our offer should be. And I want to propose that that's backward. I want to say, unless you're spending at least the same amount of time thinking about your offer and thinking about who your ideal customer is and what she really, really, really wants from you, not what you have, but what she wants. Then you should be spending the same amount of time thinking about your offer as you are about building your online course and what you're going to be putting in your online course.



A good offer is an offer that is made to the right person. And so if you've filled your email list with one segment of your audience, but you're working on an offer for a different segment, you need to be building your list with that different segment too. Because if it's all one kind of person, but you're working on a program for a different kind of person, you're not building your audience, you're not going to have enough traffic.



A good offer is an offer that understands the pain points it solves. And these pain points can be described in a very, very specific way. When you find yourself writing copy that involves words like feeling overwhelmed, feeling tired, feeling stressed. Those are very generic conditions that can almost be applied to anything. I want to challenge you to go one step further to uncover what it looks like for your ideal customer when she feels overwhelmed, because it might not be the same for all of us and it might not be a 50 year old man who has an overwhelmed problem, it probably manifests very differently for him than a 50 year old woman who is recently divorced and is also trying to lose the weight that she gained from the stress of her divorce.



What does that overwhelm mean to them? So understand the pain points in detail. A good offer is an offer that understands the deepest desires of their ideal customer. I always love to use the example of weight loss because this is such an easy one. Well, you can have so many different health coaches or personal trainers and each of them can describe the deepest desire of their ideal customer very differently. I had a student in A-Lister who was a personal trainer and she specialized in giving brides beautiful arms, wedding dress ready arms. That gives me goosebumps because that is such a good offer. That is such a good desire to understand. But that's very different from the new mom who wants to lose the baby fat or the dude who wants rock hard abs or the other dude who wants to bench however much weight.



My husband always comes home from the gym and tells me how much he benched and I'm like, "Yeah, that means nothing to me." Good, great, awesome. You're very strong. I don't know what you mean. A good offer overcomes their internal and external objections. By that we mean their external objections or the things that's physically stopping them from buying. Like how long do I have access to this thing? Do I need to start straight away? Will this give me the result I want? Often an external objection is money, but I completely ignore that because if you charge a dollar for your program, money's going to be an objection.



But it also should overcome their internal objections and their internal objections is that tiny little voice that says, "Can I make this work?" Sure it works for you, but you have X, Y, Z that I don't have, can this work for me? That's where testimonials are so effective because when we share testimonials, people put themselves in the shoes of those people whose testimonial they're reading and then they go, "Ah, if she can do it, I can do it too." A good offer overcomes their internal and external objections. A good offer gives them a good reason to make a decision now.



If Miller says to me, "Mommy, let's go get carrot cake." And I say, "No, let's do it later. Let's put it off." She'll say, "Mommy, you know we're not going to have time on the weekend and we're going to forget and we're going to be rushing around. And then they might not have fresh carrot cake anymore. Because you know it comes in on a Friday and you know by 5:00 this afternoon it's all going to be sold out and there might not be tomorrow."



If she says that to me, I'm like, "Right, let's get in the car. Let's go now. Carrot cake now, let's do it." She knows how to give me a good reason to make a decision now. You make use of bonuses to create scarcity and urgency, to get the fence sitters, which it is just normal human nature to sit on the fence and to not make a decision. It's easier to not make a decision than to make a decision. So give people an incentive to make a decision now. Those are your elements of a good offer.



A good offer has nothing to do with your price. A good offer is something that is a no brainer that anyone will say yes to. If you don't have a good offer, discounting your offer is not going to make it better. People will not buy more because it's cheaper. If your offer sucks, your offer sucks. And if it sucks at a low price, you're still going to be selling nothing. Make an offer that they cannot refuse.



Now, let's explore for a second, what is the relationship between traffic, which we talked about first and offers. You need traffic in order to build an audience. Remember audience plus offer equals money. You need traffic to build an audience. You need an offer that your audience wants, that the audience then you've built wants. If you don't have enough traffic, you don't have an audience. If you have an offer that your audience doesn't want, you have no money.



I'm going to say that again. If you don't have enough traffic, you have no audience. If you have an offer that they don't want, you have no money. Practice making offers to your email list, build your traffic, build your audience on email, build your email list and make your offers to your email list, before spending any money on webinars and big launches or sending paid traffic to your sales page.



I can see in student's eyes when they've been struggling for a while to figure out how to sell their course or how to make money online. And they're at a point where they just go, "Maybe if I just put ads to my sales page it'll work." Does not work. Do not fall for that temptation. The only thing you're going to do is make Zuckerberg richer. If your email list is not saying yes to your offer, the solution is not to just pay for more cold traffic to your sales page. If you launched and you didn't make money, it's not because your ads didn't reach the right people. It might be because you didn't spend enough time making offers to your warm audience in order to know what converts and what doesn't.



And then that brings me to the third lever that plays a big part in the success of your online course business. And that is your launch mechanism. Traffic needs offers. And the thing that ties traffic and offers together are launch mechanisms. By launch mechanism I mean a webinar, a video series, a challenge, a workshop, an email sequence. Often these are referred to as funnels. But I feel like the launch mechanism is part of a funnel. The traffic moves through a funnel from the top through the launch mechanism to the bottom where they make a sale.



Like the cake that I baked, where I messed up the baking soda and the baking powder, you need the right ingredients in the right proportions. Half a cup of baking powder is not going to get me a cake. Half a cup of baking soda will get me a cake, but half a cup of baking powder will not. I had not just the wrong ingredient, but I also had the wrong proportions of the wrong ingredient. If I had the right ingredient and the right proportions, I would've had a cake.



Let me explain this to you in some simple numbers. Let's say it costs you $10 to get one person to register for your webinar. So your traffic comes from an ad and you've paid for that person, and it cost you $10 per one person to register. Now let's say your offer converts really well, but your price point is $97 and you only had 25% of those people who registered for your webinar actually showed up for it. And then when 25% of them showed up, 10% bought.



Now, if you do the math on that, you will not be making money on a $97 offer. Because it's costing too much to get traffic into a launch mechanism where the money that goes out on the front end is not bringing in enough money on the back end when the traffic flows through this funnel. Now let's say instead of using a webinar, which is expensive and costs $10 per one person to come in, let's say you used a list building ad and it costs you $2 to get one person onto your list.



And 10% of people once they're on your list buys from you and your price is still $97. If the cost on the front end is $2 and the money out on the back end is $97. And you have a smaller funnel, like an email sequence. You could be making money for days, days, and days. So the principle here is that the higher the price point is, the bigger the mechanism is that you need, because the higher the price point is the more trust people will require of us. So if I'm going to be running cold traffic to a $20,000 coaching program, nobody's going to sign up without actually knowing something about me and about the results I can get.



Let's say if my budget was a thousand dollars and I ran that to my $20,000 coaching program, I wouldn't get very far. I need to figure out at which price point do I need what mechanism in order to have enough traffic that they see my offer and my offer converts. And the rule of thumb is this, if your offer is lower than $250, use an email sequence. If your offer is lower than $500, use a challenge or a workshop. If your offer is over a thousand dollars, use a webinar or a video series. And if your offer is over $3,000, use a webinar, a video series or a long form sales page that goes to booking a call kind of situation, goes through a book a call funnel is what we call it. The higher the ticket you sell, the warmer your people need to be.



The way you warm people up is by spending time with them. Someone who's going to buy a $97 course does not need more from you than an automated email sequence. Someone who's going to spend $20,000 needs to at least have spoken to you or someone on your team to make sure it's a good fit. Traffic, offers and launch mechanisms, those three things need to work together in a beautiful way to get you to a profitable online course launch and a scalable online business.



Now I'm wondering what kind of baker are you? Are you like me? You're making the weirdest cake by using bicarb instead of baking soda, or are you the kind of baker like Miller, who knows exactly how to traffic her mother to the cake shop on a Friday afternoon, offer me delicious carrot cake and then convert me to enjoy my cake every Friday afternoon.



I would love to hear from you. Come find me on Instagram and DM me, which one of the three, traffic, conversion or launch mechanism are you going to fix next so that you can get to launch your course profitably and scale your business and create a ton of money for you to live your life your way. Come and tell me on Instagram, I'll see you next week. Bye.




Thank you so much for listening, and if you want to learn even more marketing secrets, Facebook ad secrets, funnels and conversion secrets and you want to learn it inside the coolest community on the internet then I want to invite it to join us inside The Launch Lounge. The Launch Lounge is a monthly membership that is created for serious online course creators who are committed and ready to launch their courses with higher profits and scale their businesses to a million dollars. I want to invite you to go to shineandsucceed.com/launch to learn more about The Launch Lounge. I hope I see you inside The Launch Lounge


156. Three Design Trends The Algorithm Loves with Jacqui Naunton


156. Three Design Trends The Algorithm Loves with Jacqui Naunton

17 May 2022 | By Salome Schillack

Listen up, DIY designers! If your design strategy has so far been, "go for the pretty things,"....

Then LOG OUT OF CANVA because we need to chat!

As the old saying goes, a picture speaks a thousand words, so what exactly are you saying when it comes to your branding?

The cold hard truth is branding has the power to make or break your business. 

In this episode of The Shine Show, we have the design genius and creative trendsetter Jacqui Naunton from White Deer. 

But first, let's talk about the elephant in the room. Having a designer is ex-pen-sive! When first getting your online course ducks in a row, splashing out for a designer is the last thing you want to do.

Especially when design tools (hello #canva) are so accessible these days.

But just having a Canva account doesn't magically give you design principles. And these can be the difference between attracting or repelling your dream students. 

Being the clever creative cookie she is, Jacqui found a way to share her design skills and teach entrepreneurs how to create their own scroll-stopping, jaw-dropping, memory sticking visual assets!

This week Jacqui joins me on the show and very generously shares all the insider design tips and tricks that will take your brand from flop to FAB! 

This is one episode you cannot afford to miss, especially if you're a DIY designer.



P.S. Did this week's episode inspire you to get your creative ducks in a row? If you love what Jacqui says, you'll LOVE The Launch Lounge. It's where all the successful online course creators are hanging out to learn with & from each other. If you're ready to get serious about making moolah online, The Launch Lounge will get you there fast! Doors are opening with limited spots available. Join the waitlist, and all will be revealed soon! Secure your place here. 

When you subscribe and review the podcast not only does that give me the warm and fuzzies all over, it also helps other people to find the show.

When other people find the show they get to learn how to create more freedom in their lives from their online courses too!!

So do a good deed for all womenkind and subscribe and review this show and I will reward you with a shout out on the show!!


161. IOS Updates. Tools To Improve Performance


160. Navigating Fear and Reclaiming Personal Power With Claire Yee

S&S_P159_WP_Thumbnail (1)

159. Your Launch Failed.. Now What?


158. Learning To Value Slow Progress Over Instant Success When Chasing Your Dreams with Diane Evans


157. 3 Things Every Online Marketer Needs To Know To Successfully Scale Their Online Course Funnels


155. What To Fix First In Your Funnel


154. From Luxury Interior Design To Successful Online Course Creators with Sarah Cates of House Of Funk


153. Hiring an Integrator. How To Find The Right Person The First Time


152. How To Instantly Create More Freedom In Your Business


151. How I’m Slowing Down So That I Can Speed Up


150. How To Show Up As The Expert You Are And Overcome Your Imposter Syndrome


149. How To Find Your People Online and Finally Start Making Sales


Salome Schillack (00:00):

Hello, and welcome to episode number 156 of The Shine Show. Today's episode is called Three Design Trends The Algorithm Loves with Jacqui Naunton. Jacqui is a graphic designer, turned online design coach for small business owners at White Deer Graphic Design. She has helped hundreds of passionate business owners take charge by giving them the skills and confidence they need to create their own incredible visual brand and graphics. She's helped her clients sell out workshops, gain followers and book out their businesses.


Salome Schillack (00:38):

Jacqui is the host of the podcast Design Hacks for DIYers, where she shares how to create good design in business so that you can attract clients and build the success you dream of. Jacqui's a mum, a cheesecake lover, and a Canva enthusiast. And I am one of Jacqui's biggest fans, because not only can this girl design, she can also teach design really well. She has helped us in our business make some changes and improvements to the way that we were designing ads. So Jacqui really knows what she's talking about. So without any further ado, let's play the interview with Jacqui Naunton.


Salome Schillack (01:24):

Giving up your time and freedom to make money is so 2009. Hi, I'm your host Salome Schillack and I help online course creators launch, grow and scale their businesses with Facebook and Instagram ads so that they can make more money and have an even bigger impact in the world. If you are ready to be inspired to dream bigger, launch sooner and grow your online business faster, then tune in because you are ready to shine and this is The Shine Show.


Salome Schillack (01:58):

Jacqui, thank you so much for joining me on The Shine Show today.


Jacqui Naunton (02:02):

Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to chat with you.


Salome Schillack (02:05):

Yeah. I'm happy for you to share with the listeners all of your design magic, because you've shared so much with me and I have learned so much from you. My design skills is a little bit like my interior design skills as well. I know a pretty thing when I see it, but I [inaudible 00:02:25] for the life of me not create it. So let's just start by telling everyone what your magic is. What do you do?


Jacqui Naunton (02:31):

So I am a graphic designer, but I'm probably a lot more than that, and a lot different to that. When people ask me down the street, I'm like, "Oh, I'm graphic designer." Because it just gets too complicated, but in essence, what I do now is I used to be just a graphic designer, but I transitioned my business into teaching business owners how they can do their own graphics themselves because I was just finding so many... I was working with some incredible clients and they were amazing. I was working with a lot of women in online business, that was my niche and I loved it, but I was seeing on my Instagram mainly so many people just trying to make their own graphics and really not succeeding very well. And as a designer, I was like, "Mm, design is so important and you are just missing so many benefits of this."


Jacqui Naunton (03:09):

So I was like, "Okay, these guys either they can't afford me, or they actually enjoy making their own graphics, they love that control, they love that freedom. And so they don't want to hire me, so how can I fill in the gap here? How can I bridge the gap is probably the word, and be the kind of person that will help these people." So I transitioned to sort of just doing graphics for business owners and to teaching them how they can make their own. And that was a really fun transition. And it's been so fulfilling because it's amazing, just helping a business owner be like, "Oh, I can actually make things that look pretty. And actually don't take me forever and actually work and communicate." And it's just, it's been so rewarding and so enjoyable and so much fun. So that's what I do now.


Salome Schillack (03:49):

That's fantastic. And you have your own online course that teaches people how to do this?


Jacqui Naunton (03:53):

Yeah. I have a course called DIY Design My Biz and that's pretty much yeah the [inaudible 00:03:58] start to finish of teaching everything you need to know around designing your own graphics, designing your own logo, making everything you need for your business, so it's a lot of fun.


Salome Schillack (04:04):

That's amazing. There's so much I want to unpack here. First thing I want to ask you is, can you teach someone how to do this?


Jacqui Naunton (04:14):

That's a really good question. And I'm going to be honest with you. There are some people that can't, but I'm finding it's a very small percentage. I would say almost every single person that's on my program has been able to be just fine. Some people, either it comes super easy and some people it's a little bit harder, like you mentioned before, interior design, I am the same as you if I can't. You'd think as a designer, I'd be kind of confident in interior design, but I am not, 3D spaces confuse my brain. And I was watching an interior design webinar, then I was like, "Oh, okay. Okay." And I feel like just once you kind of get a couple of tools, once you get someone stepping you through, once you get feedback and help, my course isn't just, you can do it through your own pace, but you get a group to be able... Facebook group, you can post your designs and I'll give you feedback.


Jacqui Naunton (04:58):

And I feel like when you kind of combine those, all those different areas of learning the foundations, I don't teach people Canva templates. I teach them how to actually think like a designer. Like how can I communicate? How can I use hierarchy or contrast or all of these different fancy words that scare people initially to actually use my brain to design rather than just feeling like I've got to somehow magically make something that looks pretty. Pretty just feels so overwhelming and really personal about what is pretty, but design can be really much more structured and less fussy, and just okay, if I know these things I can get in and do it and most people can actually do it.


Salome Schillack (05:38):

Okay. Great. Well, so does Canva help or does it actually hinder?


Jacqui Naunton (05:44):

I love Canva. So I do teach in Canva. I just don't... most people just assume that as someone who teaches Canva, I have a template [inaudible 00:05:52] and I give you all these templates and I don't do that yet. I might one day, but I don't do it because you can... I think it's important to... when we start with a template of someone else's and we don't know what our actual branding is, we mash up our brand and we confuse our audience and we lose so much recognizability and consistency and professionalism in our design.


Jacqui Naunton (06:12):

So Canva is amazing. I just recommend starting with your branding first, inside Canva is fine, and then working from templates. And usually people when they open Canva, they just go straight to a template, so I always recommend let's stop, let's start slow to go fast and let's work out what your actual brand even is. What is your colors? What are your fonts? What are your branding elements? What kind of vibe do you want your business to have and then work from there. And so Canva is a hundred percent an incredible tool. And I use it actually, to be honest, 90% of the graphics I make for my own business is all Canva.


Salome Schillack (06:45):

Canva is so easy, but when you're a little bit like me, I could mess up the base Canva template.


Jacqui Naunton (06:52):

It is possible. I have seen it done. I'm like, "Oh, [inaudible 00:06:54]-"


Salome Schillack (06:54):

I can mess up with this. I'm so glad I have people doing this for me now, because if you scroll back on my Instagram, it's pretty sad. It's pretty sad, back when I did it.


Jacqui Naunton (07:02):

We all start somewhere.


Salome Schillack (07:04):

So let's talk about, I mean, design is so much more than just making it pretty. And there certainly are a lot of people who are very talented at making things pretty, but what does it mean to design... what do you mean when you say design a brand? For anyone who doesn't know what that even means, but they just look at their Instagram and they go, "Argh! Why does mine not look like all the other girls?"


Jacqui Naunton (07:28):

Yeah. So the first thing to remember is that design isn't just about prettiness. Design is about communication. That is the whole point of design is to communicate. What are you communicating in your business? Are you communicating what kind of people that you work with? If you looked at... if I say to you right now, picture the brand of a day spa, what colors are popping into your head right now?


Salome Schillack (07:47):

White and blues and greens and earthy tones.


Jacqui Naunton (07:50):

Exactly. It would not be a bright red, it would not be a flory green, it would not be... we have these assumptions in our mind about what things are and we see them. And so as business owners, we need to lean into that. And we need to see that when people come across, say our Instagram or our website or our landing page, what are they assuming about our brand? What are they assuming about the kind of person we are? What are they assuming about the kind of business that we are? What are they assuming about the kind of people that we serve? What are they assuming about our price point? All of these things people are making snap judgments about when they see our business.


Jacqui Naunton (08:20):

And so for me, I have lots of really bright colors. My branding is blue and pink and orange. And so when you see my branding, you don't expect to have a really stuffy corporate person that you're working with. You'll expect someone like me, that's like, yeah whether we try this and whether this be fun and [inaudible 00:08:34] talking fast and all these fun things, because I believe business should be fun. And I portrayed that through my branding. And so there's ways that we can use. We can... when we stop and actually think about our business, when we stop and think about... I teach a method, a way of thinking about our branding called The WOW Model.


Jacqui Naunton (08:51):

And it kind of covers three key circles. The first one being your whos. Obviously, who is your target audience? Who do you want to work with? Who do you want to attract? And then that circle overlaps in kind of a Venn diagram kind of thing, with two other circles, there's a who, but there's also your why. And that can be about what do you stand for? What do you want people to feel when they work with you? What is your price point? All these value based things. Who are your competitors? And how can you make sure you... we don't want to be cliche in the way that we look, we don't look like everyone else in our industry. We do want to make sure that we are similarish, that it makes sense like the day spa kind of example we gave before.


Jacqui Naunton (09:25):

And so you've got your who circle then you've got your why circle. And then you've also got your originality circle, which is you. As so many online business owners, we are a part of our business. If you were to remove Jacqui from White Deer, my business, you wouldn't have White Deer anymore, but the business is me, we're one and the same. And so not forgetting who you are and how can you... what do you love? What colors light you up? What represents you? And I think when we overlap those three circles of your target audience, your why and your originality, then we get this perfect combination of what our brand should actually be, [inaudible 00:09:56] because the colors that you love, aren't going to be all the colors your target audience loves, but somewhere there's going to be an overlap. Somewhere there will be an overlap.


Salome Schillack (10:02):

[inaudible 00:10:02], I love that.


Jacqui Naunton (10:03):

And so when we think of those things through, it becomes a lot less scary and a lot less messy. And what I encourage people to do is just do, this is my motto, pick and stick, pick a set of colors, pick a set of fonts, pick a set, pick a way of doing your graphics and stick with that. And if you've thought through those things really well of thinking about your who and your why, and originality, it's going to come so much more clearer. And when you look at people that have Instagram Feeds that you're just in love with, often is a beautiful consistency that's there. They're not just trying a different color each week. They're not trying a different font each week. They're not trying a different style each week. They've got that consistency. And it's that consistency provides so much professionalism or reliability. So just working through those three circles, picking something, sticking with it. And that's most of the magic, to be honest.


Salome Schillack (10:50):

I love that so much because I can see that where I've gone wrong with branding in the past was where I either branded it just for myself.


Jacqui Naunton (10:59):



Salome Schillack (10:59):

Because I didn't want to get bored with it, or I didn't want to get tired of it, or then where I branded it just for my client, and then I ended up feeling like it's not really authentically me, it doesn't represent me and both ways. And I love that you say there's sort of this magical overlap in the middle. That makes so much sense to me. And what if we do get bored with our own brands? Do we just, like you say, stick with it, because I get bored with things within five minutes, I've rebranded seven times. What do we do when we get bored? Do we just stick with it? Or... help me.


Jacqui Naunton (11:36):

Hey look, you're definitely not alone. I've had this conversation many a time with many business owners, and you have to ask yourself a couple of questions. Rebranding is definitely a thing that needs to happen at some stage in your business usually. I'm talking a lot about in my Instagram right now, to people around the idea of the... if you are four or five years into a business and your business is now actually doing really well, the chances that your initial brand that you first started with, whether you DIYed it or whether you had a designer do it, the chances that, that actually still is the right brand for your business is actually quite slim because your business has probably evolved so much. You're probably serving a higher paying client, you're probably doing a lot different things in your business and you've probably evolved. And so it's okay to evolve your brand, but it's not okay to evolve your brand because you're bored. I think that's [inaudible 00:12:19]-


Salome Schillack (12:19):

Hmm. I like that.


Jacqui Naunton (12:20):

... a huge reason for undermining your recognizability. When people are scrolling their Instagram, if you are scrolling your Instagram, you are going to... it feels like someone you're following that you really, really connect with. You're going to want to stop and read their posts, but if they was always posting purple posts and all of a sudden they posted [inaudible 00:12:39] yellow, you're probably just going to scroll past because you don't recognize it's them. And so we need to make sure that we're really leaning into that recognizability because that's one of the things that's going to set us apart from the rest of the rest. Our feeds, our internet, our emails, they're so saturated. And so if we are changing our brand up all the time, we are losing that recognizability. You don't see... Coke has had that same red for forever. They're not getting rid of that.


Salome Schillack (13:04):



Jacqui Naunton (13:05):

No reason at all. Cadbury has had that same purple. There's things that we can do to I guess, allow us having... I was coaching someone this morning just on how they can still feel inspired by their branding, but also lean into that consistency because we don't... I guess I just want to say don't change things for the sake of changing things, because you're bored.


Salome Schillack (13:23):



Jacqui Naunton (13:24):

Because that'll undermine you, but if you aren't feeling inspired and you're not showing up because of that, then think about, are there some ways maybe I can just update a color? Maybe I can just update a couple of elements if I need to, not just because you're bored, but because you might need to, because that's not serving you anymore.


Salome Schillack (13:39):

So launch Vanilla Coke or Cherry Coke, or-


Jacqui Naunton (13:43):



Salome Schillack (13:45):

[inaudible 00:13:45] Cadburys with Popping Candy.


Jacqui Naunton (13:47):

[inaudible 00:13:47] that all still has the elements of purple and the same [inaudible 00:13:49] so...


Salome Schillack (13:49):

Yeah. That makes so much sense. And what about... most of my listeners, we all start on social media. We all start because we have a phone in our pockets and we can just hit go live or we could post a few things on social media and start a business that way. And that's the beauty of what we do is we all have this gift in our heads and in our hearts that we want to share with the world and we get to do that with social media. So how do we translate branding into social media, with videos and with images, and when you're... if you have photos being taken, because you are not the photographer, you're the designer, but somewhere in there, these two things need to meet, and how does a business owner, when you go and talk to a photographer and you have your br... how do you bridge that gap?


Jacqui Naunton (14:38):

Yeah. That's a really great question. So there's no right or wrong answer with this. One of my clients has quite a differing view on this to me, but I think the way... the way I think that it works best is one, if you're going to get photos taken, know your branding colors before you get those taken, know your brand vibe. If you've got a brand vibe that's really dark and moody, then don't go take photos in a well lit room, that's really fun and chirpy. It doesn't make sense. And then the same way, if you've got a really light and chirpy brand, don't go taking photos in a subway tunnel. They can both be great photos, but they're not your brand. And so working out what your brand is first is really important, or if you like [inaudible 00:15:15], if you want to know a secret, I actually got my first branding colors from a photo shoot. I just went in and took the photos [inaudible 00:15:20]-


Salome Schillack (15:20):

I like that.


Jacqui Naunton (15:23):

... branding colors because I hadn't solidified my brand yet. And thankfully it worked out for me, but I don't recommend doing it that backwards way unless you already have your photos-


Salome Schillack (15:28):



Jacqui Naunton (15:30):

[inaudible 00:15:30] actually probably create your brand from those. But in essence, if you are either wearing a hint of your branding colors or at least it's in the background or like today I took some photos of my brand. I was wearing a white shirt and blue jeans, just something that's not too... if your branding is, if we go back to the day spa, if they could take photos in white shirts and gray shirts and all those kinds of things, even if white wasn't technically in their branding, but they wouldn't go taking photos in dark red because that's going clash with their brand-


Salome Schillack (16:00):

Clash, yeah.


Jacqui Naunton (16:00):

I guess, the biggest [inaudible 00:16:02] just making sure that whatever you get for your branding photos doesn't clash with your brand. It can be... it doesn't have to be identical, but that it supports it makes designing so much easier. And then when you're posting that to your Instagram, whether you choose to just post that photo straight as it is, or you can brand it a little bit. In one of the workshops I ran recently, I encouraged people to find what's called... what I call branding elements. So your brand isn't just your colors and your fonts. Your brand is more than that. For me, I have little paint strokes, and I have little doodles of little scribbles and stuff. And those are two of my branding elements. And I could post a photo, but then put a little paint stroke in the corner or put a little doodle in the corner, or add in a little bit of my color as a box in the background somewhere.


Jacqui Naunton (16:45):

How can you just add a little bit of a hint of your brand to your photos? You don't have to do it all the time, just enough that it really does that, continues to increase that recognizability, helps people to be like, "Oh, that's something Jacqui's doing." Thankfully, our faces are really recognizable. So if you're building a personal brand, then just posting a picture of yourself is going to help that recognizability, but adding in a couple of those branding elements can never hurt because it just continues to reinforce your look and your brand and sets that up as something that's recognizable and trustworthy. And so when they see a post that doesn't have your face on it, they still recognize it.


Salome Schillack (17:18):

I love that, because I was... my next question was going to be, what about the casual at home, kind of the impromptu, but having those little touches that kind of ties it in, right, because you don't want it to always look perfect sometimes, but it can be imperfect and still branded, right?


Jacqui Naunton (17:35):

Yeah. The other day I did a post. It was of me, it was a picture my sister-in-law took of me on a train at a farm with my baby. And that's not a professional photo, it was just me. And so I chucked that through, I recommend using an editing program called Lightroom, which is just a free app on your phone. It's an Adobe program, and you can just edit things that look quite clean and professional. And then I just popped that on the background, I popped that on a peach background and I added in my paint stroke and that was it.


Salome Schillack (17:59):

Ah, cool. That's so nice.


Jacqui Naunton (18:00):

It was just not that special. Yeah.


Salome Schillack (18:02):

Yeah. Oh, that's nice. And it just takes five minutes to do it on your phone.


Jacqui Naunton (18:06):

Yeah. Exactly.


Salome Schillack (18:07):

Oh, that's so nice. Okay, let's wander a little bit away from social media, because I feel like we've talked a lot about design and branding and making it look pretty on social media. What other things do you have to keep in mind when you're building a design, when you're branding and designing? One of the things that I'm thinking of for example is, how do you choose a sales page template? Is there different things like that? And then how do you get your brand onto that template? Talk me through a little bit of that.


Jacqui Naunton (18:42):

Yeah. So the great thing is once you've actually done that work at the start of naming out your colors and your branding and your fonts and also those elements, those are so, so helpful because you can imagine that when you get to designing your sales page, in terms of the template, I just recommend picking something that's going to support the message that you're sharing, so if you've maybe outlined what you want to share in a Google document, and then you're like, "Okay, I need to put this into a sales page." If you see a sales page, it's got a similar layout to what you're doing, just use that, there's no overthinking the actual design of it in terms of... although if you've got a really minimal brand, don't go choosing a really funky, heaps of clutter everywhere brand, but...


Jacqui Naunton (19:19):

So thinking about those things and trying to make sure they align, but then once you've... you can pretty much make any templates through your branding, I know if you are clear on what your brand is.


Salome Schillack (19:28):



Jacqui Naunton (19:29):

So just going in, changing all of the colors, don't, getting caught up. The biggest thing about especially working with templates, for example, is not getting caught up in the pretty things they already have. Say for example, you have a Canva template or a sales page template, and it's got a cool thin border and a really fancy font and this really cool purple color and you're like, "Oh, that looks amazing. I'll just change the text." No, it's not your brand, you're not existing to look pretty. There's plenty of pretty stuff in the world. You need to look like your brand. And so making sure that you... I teach my students to just strip the template back to its bare-bones, so that you can then flesh it back out again with your brand. Delete everything that's not necessary. And then flesh it back out with your brand. So adding in your colors, adding your fonts.


Jacqui Naunton (20:12):

Adding in, say for example, when I do a sales page, I might have a picture of me that's cut out but I don't just do that. I put my little paint stroke behind it, or I put my little doodle next to me, just a little something that just keeps on adding in my brand elements to keep it being that recognizable, recognizability [inaudible 00:20:29] sentence, but building that out and just always adding in your stuff back in, just so, so helps because you imagine if you, say are promoting something on Facebook ads or your Instagram and you direct people to your landing page or your sales page, if that doesn't look the same, if that doesn't have that consistency, then people are going to be confused and they're going to be like, "Did I even hit the right sales page? Is this the right [inaudible 00:20:49]?"


Salome Schillack (20:49):



Jacqui Naunton (20:50):

No. We want people to feel so supported, so secure and just like things make sense. They shouldn't be thinking at all about your branding. It should just be there. And subconsciously they're taking it all in. So making sure that when you're doing a post, that it aligns... an Instagram post and then there's a journey. They click on your Instagram post and they click on the link in the bio and they go through to your landing page and they go through to your thank you page and they go through to the emails and it's all consistent. The font's the same, you haven't just chosen the pretty font that was on the template, you've changed it to your font. You haven't just chosen the pretty color, you've changed it to your color. So always just bringing it back to your own brand. That's where the magic is.


Salome Schillack (21:23):

Oh, that's fantastic. That's so good. So tell me all the elements of a brand. What are all the things that people need to think about? You've mentioned, colors and fonts, but what are all the things that we need to keep consistent?


Jacqui Naunton (21:37):

Yeah. So first things first, is your logo. So I recommend having a logo, that's not just one logo. A logo is often made up of an icon and text. So having an icon that works really great by itself, just for really small uses, like down the bottom of an Instagram post or in the little icon that's on the top of a web browser. All those little things. And then having that, say your logo is a square, having a version that's horizontal, having a version that might be more vertical, so you can use it in different areas and it still works, so and having a version that works in white and black and in color. So doing all those [inaudible 00:22:12]-


Salome Schillack (22:12):

[inaudible 00:22:12].


Jacqui Naunton (22:12):

Yeah, it just makes... people just, they just [inaudible 00:22:15] up a logo on Canva, but then they realize they can't actually use it most of the time they want to use it because they're using it on a color background, but the logo is [inaudible 00:22:21] in color and now it just clashes when they put it together. So making sure you think through all of those variations of the logo is the first step, one of the first step, one of the steps.


Jacqui Naunton (22:29):

And then having your color palette. So you can have two colors or you can have 10 colors. There's no hard and fast rule, but I often recommend having a range of colors in terms of, say for example, my brand is blue purple and peach, and I have a light blue and a dark blue and a lighter blue and a dark purple and a light purple and a medium purple because so many times I get to design a graphic, then I'm like, "Oh, that purple's now clashing with that peach." But if I make that the light version of the peach on the dark version of the purple, it actually works. So having-


Salome Schillack (22:57):



Jacqui Naunton (22:58):

[inaudible 00:22:58] you've got a blue and green color palette, having your main blue and green, but also having a lighter and darker version of those can be so, so helpful to actually building out your graphics every day.


Salome Schillack (23:07):

That was such a huge mistake I made at one point. I just chose five really bright colors.


Jacqui Naunton (23:12):



Salome Schillack (23:13):

When I started and I had these five colors and everything ended up looking like Krusty the Clown, because it's just all five bright colors and there's nothing soft and all five of them don't always go together, it's like people are shouting at you all the time. That's such a good tip.


Jacqui Naunton (23:27):

Yep. And just a random tip while I think of it. If you've got lots of color in your branding, choosing an overall theme for each graphic, so I do a purple themed graphic or a blue themed graphic and occasionally it'll have a reference of a different color, but not feeling like you have to use all of your colors in all your graphics because that [inaudible 00:23:42] work, unless you've literally got a rainbow kind of style.


Salome Schillack (23:46):



Jacqui Naunton (23:46):

[inaudible 00:23:46] your colors, so make sure you pick those and make sure they're versatile. And I really recommend for all of these things is using them... make a test graphic and see if it works, don't just pick a color palette and it looks good just looking at it as a color palette, but try to use the color palette in person and try to make a social media graphic and see if it actually works because usually we'll have to tweak the colors a tiny bit.


Salome Schillack (24:06):



Jacqui Naunton (24:07):

And then you've got your fonts. So don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't pick more than three fonts unless you're really, really great at working with fonts. It's too hard when we pick too many fonts, they all... every single font has its own, what we call a font voice, it's saying something. A cursive font is saying, relaxed or feminine or whatever. And a bold font is saying, strong and powerful. All these fonts are saying different things. If you pick too many fonts, we're subconsciously giving out too many messages and people are going to get confused and they're just going to fight.


Jacqui Naunton (24:37):

And so picking two or three fonts, you can even pick one font. You can actually pick one font and for your headings, use it in all caps, for your body text using it in normal case. And for your subheading text, using it with spaces between the letters. You could literally do a whole brand with one font. There's no need to overdo things there. Speaking of three different fonts, I usually recommend a plain body font, a really clear, but beautiful heading font. And then maybe a cursive accent font that you can use occasionally as well.


Salome Schillack (25:05):

I was going to ask you about that because it would be funny if you have all flowy and beautiful, you kind of need that balance between, it's almost like a masculine and feminine, you need a balance between the fonts, there's fonts that compliment each other and fonts that don't. So there's art in knowing what fonts to put together?


Jacqui Naunton (25:26):

Yeah, there is. And it's a matter of, you can either test it or if you join my program, I can help you find that out, or you can even just [inaudible 00:25:34] things like font pairings, and just see what other people have done and put together. And if you don't like those exact versions, be like, "Oh, I like that kind of font, but I don't like that exact cursive fonts. I'm going to pick a slightly different one." But not varying too much because the font pairing already looks good [inaudible 00:25:48].


Salome Schillack (25:48):

Yeah. Love it.


Jacqui Naunton (25:50):

And then the last thing, part of a brand is your elements, like I talked about before is picking out, is your brand going to be gold sparkles and really [inaudible 00:25:58] gold lines? Or is it going to be really bold stock photos with rainbows? Or is it going to be a sketchy kind of outlines? Or is it going to be paint strokes? Or is it going to be tape? Is it going to be Polaroids? Thinking about what is my design style and sticking with that. If you're not sure at all where to start with that, just go to Pinterest and just search just a phrase like graphic design or a word that represents your business, feminine graphic design or [inaudible 00:26:24] graphic design, whatever it is, or even social media templates comes up with some great examples as well.


Salome Schillack (26:29):



Jacqui Naunton (26:29):

And scroll through and begin to see what's there. See what's jumping out at you, see what it is inspiring you, see what suits your three circles, The WOW Model that I've spoken about before. And begin to kind of notice what's there and create your own. And don't try to culminate too many styles into one. You be like, "Oh, I love the [inaudible 00:26:48] look, but I also like the rainbows and I also like gold sparkles." Pick one of them and stick with that and try not to get bored of it because your audience isn't getting bored of it, it's just promoting that recognizability.


Salome Schillack (26:58):

What about fashions? Because there was a... at one point I wanted to put a rose gold stripe on everything because rose gold was everywhere and it's so pretty. How do we avoid the temptation of going with whatever's in fashion at the moment but also stay current?


Jacqui Naunton (27:17):

Yep. And it's tricky. Some designers will tell you don't do anything that's along with the trends, just do your whole only unique thing, but I honestly think that people... things are trending because people like it. So it's okay to lean into those, but I would lean into them and then stay with them. So if you are going to do the rose gold line, do that for a few years. Don't just change it up every time there's a new trend, stick with something. And so that's where our brand can kind of evolve. Say for example, I've got my certain colors and my certain fonts, but say for example, say paint strokes went totally out of fashion. I would just update couple of my elements, but I've stuck with the paint strokes for five years.


Jacqui Naunton (27:55):

And then maybe in the next five years I would let myself update to something slightly different, but not just updating things for the sake of it because it's pretty, focusing on that one idea, that one trend that I'm liking that's relevant to my audience, that I know my audience loves, that I really love, that's supporting my why, and running with that. Putting the trends through the filter of what's going to [inaudible 00:28:17] your brand.


Salome Schillack (28:17):

I love that. I want to jump a little bit to something different and talk about some design for Facebook ads.


Jacqui Naunton (28:25):



Salome Schillack (28:25):

You and I have spent days, feels like days talking about design for Facebook ads. So tell me a little, there's such... for me as an advertiser, I am always more interested in, is it going to stop the scroll? Is it going to convert? Far more than does it look pretty? How do you strike a balance in designing images and video because video is now... when I say video, I mean not necessarily you talking, camera facing, but does... you know these little videos that we have short videos that's got little sparkles on it or the words are flying in and out. I mean, those are working really well, but what are some tips that you have for the listeners to create images that really capture their ideal customer's attention, gets them to pay attention and gets them to convert to that lead magnet or gets them to sign up for that webinar or challenge or workshop that they have, or get them to buy the actual course that they're selling. What's some hot tips that you have for us for designing ad images.


Jacqui Naunton (29:40):

So it'd be nice if there was just some little pill that would just solve all of this, but unfortunately there's not. So there will have to be that experimentation and seeing what's working for your audience, but one thing is to first think about what am I communicating in this ad? Obviously, you know but do you actually know? When you are actually designing the graphic, don't get caught up in that prettiness, be like, "If I want someone to download this lead magnet, how am I going to get them to do that?" So thinking through your messaging in terms of, what's the key text? What text is my audience going to see that's going to be like, "Oh, I need this." And it's not going to be... for some people, it may be the word free, because some people are just scrolling into it, looking for free things.


Jacqui Naunton (30:22):

For other people, it might be the word like, solve all your life's problems and that might capture their attention. And so thinking about what's the wording that's going to be most attractive to my audience and then making sure that wording is just so darn clear so that it's nice and big, it's nice and clear, it's not hidden in some cursive font that no one can read, it's not hidden in a font that's too thin. It's not hidden in a font that's white text on a bright yellow background. Making sure that first and foremost, your text is really, really clear. And whether you choose to do the whole [inaudible 00:30:53] of text like free lead magnet, download now, name of the lead magnet, picture of the lead magnet and that whole [inaudible 00:31:01] or whether you just choose to do one punchy piece of text or a punchy picture of your lead magnet, and whatever that is just making sure you're thinking through, what do I want to communicate and what's going to stand out to my audience? And really prioritizing that.


Jacqui Naunton (31:11):

And making sure that when you do that, not all of it... not all text is created equal. So what I mean by that is if you have an image with five sections of text on it, say like lead magnet, free, the name of the lead magnet, maybe your business name, all these different things. Well, not all those pieces of text should be the same size. There needs to be some, what we call hierarchy. And that's kind of taking your audience on a visual journey of, what do you want to jump out at them first? And then what do you want them to look at next? And then what do you want them to look at next?


Jacqui Naunton (31:42):

Not having all your texts the same size or the same boldness, but having that journey so that [inaudible 00:31:46] is going to actually work to convert them is the biggest piece of text because that's what's going to stop their scroll and then taking them on the journey through. This is a free lead magnet [inaudible 00:31:57]. This is a free PDF and you'll download it here and all that actual information that... don't... that's not going to capture their attention, but the thing that is you're making sure that's the biggest.


Salome Schillack (32:05):

I love that. So the big, bold benefit.


Jacqui Naunton (32:07):



Salome Schillack (32:09):

Not the word download or the word... I see so many funny words that gets highlighted because you want them to take action, but actually it's about the benefit, right? What's in it for me.


Jacqui Naunton (32:21):

Exactly. That's what's going to capture their attention. And then just from a graphic perspective, one of the ads that performed really well for one of my clients, her branding is purple and tan. And she went and did a photo shoot with a bright yellow dress. And I said, "Nah, I'm annoyed that you did that." But it worked. It worked for her ads. The rest of the branding was purple and tan, but that her and the yellow dress just captured people's attention. And to be honest, it really contrasted well from the purple that we used as the base. So thinking about, and just from a image perspective, what's going to actually jump out? How can I use contrast? How can I use bright things? If bright things aren't your branding, don't use bright things, but thinking through how can I stay aligned with my branding, but also maybe tweak things a little bit, maybe break a couple of rules just so I can really stand out on the Facebook Feed or the Instagram Feed.


Salome Schillack (33:06):

Yeah. Yeah. And it seems like warm colors are still the go to. We've had clients where the bluer colors, the greener colors convert better than the warm colors, but nothing beats bright yellow, right?


Jacqui Naunton (33:18):

Apparently not. Apparently not a bright yellow dress.


Salome Schillack (33:22):

[inaudible 00:33:22]. That's so good. Okay, Jacqui, where can someone start if they want to learn how to design their own brand, because it's expensive hiring designers?


Jacqui Naunton (33:36):

It is expensive. It is expensive. There's a few different places you can start. If you just want to tackle things on your own, just stop and really sit down one day and work out those three circles, your who is your target audience? What is your why? What's your brand positioning? What do you want to charge for your business? And what is my originality? What lights me up. And so just thinking about those three circles, just journaling and doing some research, asking your audience what they love, working out what you love and finding that overlap. That's a really, really great place to start. And if you want some more help with those things, I have a heap of resources I can direct you towards. I've got a... if you just head to whitedeer.com.au/hangout, there's a heap of resources there you can just start with.


Jacqui Naunton (34:17):

And it's just less overwhelming to do those things, but in essence, the biggest key is just to stop and think about it, to stop and consider your branding, to stop and actually be like, "You know what? I have a business and I want it to succeed. And I'm going to actually put the time into thinking about it because when I do that, it just makes so much more sense to my audiences." And this world is crazy enough that we don't need things that don't make sense, and [inaudible 00:34:40] to one of them, we need people to see our branding like, "Ah, this makes sense. I want to connect. I know the steps, and the journey is clear. The wording is clear. Everything is just smooth." And create that experience for your audience and it'll make a huge difference.


Salome Schillack (34:54):

I love that. My next question was going to be, where can people learn more about you?


Jacqui Naunton (35:00):



Salome Schillack (35:00):

Tell us again.


Jacqui Naunton (35:01):

I'll say that again. So whitedeer, white, like the color white and the deer, the animal.com.au/hangout. And there'll be some resources there or you can explore the rest of my website or if you are an Instagram [inaudible 00:35:12] like myself, my handle is whitedeergd. And I love the old Gram. So please come follow me there and send me message, say that you found me on this podcast and I would love to have a chat with you and see how I can help you or see what you kind of are thinking about. What is your who? What is your originality? What is your why? And I've also got a podcast, if you're interested, it's called Design Hacks for DIYers and you can... I just got 20 minutes segments just to kind of give you lots of different [inaudible 00:35:39] ideas about your branding and your business and your designing.


Salome Schillack (35:41):

I love that. I love you. Thank you so much, Jacqui. Please go and check out Jacqui's free resources or her podcast, you will learn so much. You will not regret it, especially if you're like me and you can mess Canva up easily. Even Canva won't get you there and then you need some Jacqui in your life. Thank you so much, Jacqui.


Jacqui Naunton (36:03):

Thank you for having me. Bye.


Salome Schillack (36:05):



Salome Schillack (36:06):

If you loved this episode, you are going to love being a member of The Launch Lounge. The Launch Lounge is a place where serious online course creators get to hang out, have fun and learn with and from each other. It is seriously the best place on the internet for online course creators who are ready to launch bigger, make more profits and scale their online courses businesses to five, six, and seven figures. And you can sign up for the wait list for The Launch Lounge by going to shineandsucceed.com/launch, if you're on the wait list, you'll be the first person to know when we're opening for enrollment again. That's shineandsucceed.com/launch to go to the wait list for The Launch Lounge. I'll see you next week.


Salome Schillack (37:04):

Thank you so much for listening. If you had fun, please come back next week and remember to hit that subscribe button, so you never miss a thing.


155. What To Fix First In Your Funnel


155. What To Fix First In Your Funnel

10 May 2022 | By Salome Schillack

This week we revisit one of the most popular episodes from 2021. Hope you enjoy this blast from the past.

Feeling like your energy and money is vanishing into thin air? With little to show for all that hard, hard work you've poured into your business?

Stop what you're doing (and double-stop what you're doing if it involves learning a new Reels dance that you're hoping will draw in hundreds of new followers) because it sounds like you have a case of 'broken funnel' on your hands!

Right now, you might be thinking; my funnel is A LOT! Where the HECK do I even start? And how do I even know what needs fixing? Is there some magic pill that can do it for me?

Or maybe you’re just not making money and you suspect it might be because your funnel is not working, but how do you know where to start fixing it?

This week on The Shine Show, I'm putting on my funnel doctor coat and taking you step by step through the funnel diagnosing process that will help you:

  • Pinpoint and fix the problem
  • Reclaim your time
  • Stop the bank account drain
  • Put your energy & resources into the things that will make you more moolah
  • and start growing exponentially!

Now is the perfect time to reset, reflect, tweak and get your funnels in tip-top shape and set yourself up for the most unbelievable success!


P.S Nothing makes my heart happier than hearing your feedback from the show. Jump over to my Instagram and message me if you're taking away something from today's episode! What are you fixing first in your funnel? Slide into my DMs and let me know!

When you subscribe and review the podcast not only does that give me the warm and fuzzies all over, it also helps other people to find the show.

When other people find the show they get to learn how to create more freedom in their lives from their online courses too!!

So do a good deed for all womenkind and subscribe and review this show and I will reward you with a shout out on the show!!


161. IOS Updates. Tools To Improve Performance


160. Navigating Fear and Reclaiming Personal Power With Claire Yee

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159. Your Launch Failed.. Now What?


158. Learning To Value Slow Progress Over Instant Success When Chasing Your Dreams with Diane Evans


157. 3 Things Every Online Marketer Needs To Know To Successfully Scale Their Online Course Funnels


156. Three Design Trends The Algorithm Loves with Jacqui Naunton


154. From Luxury Interior Design To Successful Online Course Creators with Sarah Cates of House Of Funk


153. Hiring an Integrator. How To Find The Right Person The First Time


152. How To Instantly Create More Freedom In Your Business


151. How I’m Slowing Down So That I Can Speed Up


150. How To Show Up As The Expert You Are And Overcome Your Imposter Syndrome


149. How To Find Your People Online and Finally Start Making Sales

Hello and welcome to episode number 155 of The Shine Show. Today's episode is called ‘What To Fix First In Your Funnel’ and I'm going to be honest with you we had a tiny scheduling issue this week with the podcast and instead of hustling my face off to fix the mistake I decided we are just going to pull out one of our best episodes from 2021. This episode got the second most highest number of downloads. The one that got the highest was one of the episodes in the three part series on webinars. So I am thrilled and delighted to see that you guys are loving our content about funnels and webinars and all things related to marketing your online course business and your online courses. So I decided today we are going to replay for you and older episode this is ‘What To Fix First In Your Funnel’, enjoy! 


Giving up your time and freedom to make money is so 2009. Hi, I'm your host, Salome Schillack, and I help online course creators launch, grow, and scale their businesses with Facebook and Instagram ads so that they can make more money and have an even bigger impact in the world. If you're ready to be inspired, to dream bigger, launch sooner, and grow your online business faster, then tune in, because you are ready to shine, and this is The Shine Show.


Well, hello, my friends. It's so nice to be here with you today. In today's episode, you're going to learn exactly what to focus on when you are troubleshooting your funnels to see what you need to fix first so that you spend your energy in the place where you will make the biggest impact. When you know how to do this, you'll start putting your money into the right things where you're going to get exponential return instead of just throwing spaghetti on the wall. So what I'm going to teach you today is going to save you time. It's going to help you have a little bit more peace in your life because you're going to pour your energy into things that are actually making a difference. And it is going to help you save money and put the money in the important places.


Now, if you have been hanging around with me for a while, you may have heard me say that there's a very easy equation to making money online. You only need two things. You need an audience, and you need an offer. So audience plus offer equals money. Audience plus offer equals money. Super simple. It's not quite easy, but it is super simple, and it really is as simple as audience plus offer equals money. So let's unpack those three elements a little bit. Let's unpack audience and unpack offer and unpack money because those are the three levers you can pull. And if you only have three levers you can pull, it automatically makes it easier to start knowing where to troubleshoot your funnels.


First of all, we're going to look at audience. Audience has three core elements. Now, you might be grabbing a pen and a piece of paper to write some of this stuff down. I will be repeating a lot of it because today's episode is quite content-heavy. I'm going to be teaching you some stuff. This is teaching stuff here, heavy stuff. This is like the kind of stuff I teach the students inside The Launch Lounge. So grab a pen and a piece of paper and write down, "Audience plus offer equals money." Now, on another page, write down, "Audience," and then let's divide audience into the things that you need to be focusing on first when you are fixing your funnels and when you're trying to make some money or more money online.


So here are the three parts of audience that we're going to troubleshoot. The first one is list building. List building is number one. Number two is list nurturing. That is the second thing you're going to focus on. And number three, and yes, my friends, I am putting this one last for a reason, is social media. Why do I put social media last? Because really, social media is the last thing you should be focusing on when you are building your audience, and I'll explain why in a second. So under audience, we have list building, list nurturing, and social media.


Now, let's talk about list building. When you are building an audience, the most important thing, the number one activity you should be doing, the only thing you should be focusing on when you get started is list building. I heard the money's in the list. I heard build your list. I heard it 700 million times before I actually listened to it. And can I tell you what the one thing is I regret most in my business? Is not starting my list building sooner. By the time I got around to building my email list, my ad costs were higher, my social media engagement was lower. Thankfully that's about the same time I realized I can run engagement ads to build all those things back up, but it was an expensive exercise, and especially if you're on a tight budget.


So don't think that you're just going to use social media. You are going to use social media too, but your number one priority when you start out creating funnels, testing funnels, and building funnels is list-building. You're going to use your lead magnets to build your list. You are going to test your audience targeting. And when you look at your ad results, you're going to look at your link click-through, right? So in other words, the rate at which people who are seeing your ads are clicking on your ads, and you want that to be above 1%. And you're going to look at your landing page conversion rate, and you want that to be above 45%.


So if you're just getting started and list building is the first thing you're focusing on, then you're going to create as many lead magnets as you possibly can. You're going to put yourself in your ideal customer's shoes and ask yourself, "What is one small win someone can have when they come and talk to me or work with me?" And you can decide if you want to put that into a checklist or a blueprint or an ebook or a quiz or whatever you want to do. Actually don't do a quiz. Quizzes are more advanced. If you're just starting out, don't do a quiz. If you're advanced, please do a quiz, you can do a quiz, you're allowed to do a quiz. But if you're just starting out, steer clear of quizzes because they are a little bit more advanced.


Start building your email list, focus there first. If there's anything you're going to fix first, you fix your list-building first. You make sure you have a lead magnet in place that is actually going to convert. You make sure you have a lead magnet in place that people actually want. And you make sure you have a lead magnet in place that is the start of a conversation with your ideal customer where the next logical conversation is your paid course. In other words, if I'm going to solve a small problem for someone with my lead magnet, I want them to consume my lead magnet and be left after consuming my lead magnet feeling like, "Wow, I just got a fantastic win, and this win has given me clarity for what to do next." And it is that what-to-do-next piece that is your online course then.


So my question to you as we wrap up talking about list building is, is your lead magnet the start of a conversation that ends in them buying your paid course? Think about that for your lead magnet. And if you are currently not making money in your funnels, ask yourself, "Was my lead magnet the opening of the conversation that logically led to them wanting to buy my course?" So that's number one. So let's go back. Audience plus offer equals money. We're unpacking and dissecting audience at the moment because the first thing you need to test is your audiences. Under audience, number one, list building, number two, list nurturing.


What is list nurturing? Actually, not nurturing your list is the number one reason why people don't build their lists. You can put your imaginary hand up. I'm not seeing you, so put your imaginary hand up, but my hand is going up. Hand up if you have started list-building, started emailing them every week, was consistent for about a month, and then the kids were on holidays or the cat got sick or your job got busy or something happened, or you signed up a few clients and then you didn't need to nurture the list anymore, and then you stopped nurturing your list. Oh-oh. List nurturing is one of the key activities in your business. If you're going to build an audience, if you're going to put money behind ads to build your list, you 100% need to be nurturing your email list.


Now, it doesn't have to be something epic. You can just write a personal email, share a story, share a success story of a client or another student or something that happened in your life. Go live on Facebook and share that with them. But add value. Find a way to add value. There's a reason. That lead magnet that you created, people opted into your email list based off of that lead magnet that you created. They said, "I would love to hear from you on a regular basis. Please send me emails." So send them emails and make them valuable. Every single week, send them a valuable email. What are you doing consistently and reliably every single week to nurture your list and give them value? If you're sitting there and you're like, "My funnels aren't working, I haven't made money online," question number one is what are you doing to build your list? Question number two is what are you doing to nurture your list?


So now you know what to fix first. First, you fix your audiences. Under audiences, you fix list-building first, you fix list-nurturing second. Now, what is the third thing, the thing that I said I put third on the list for a reason? The thing that is third on the list is social media. Now, we are often tempted to start by fixing social media. Again, hands up if you've downloaded 700 different content planning templates or content calendars or prompts for social media content. I remember spending Sunday afternoons sitting there creating posts for Instagram and Facebook. Maybe back then when I started it was just Facebook. I think it was just Facebook. Sitting there creating posts on Canva and writing all sorts of captions for my social media, thinking that's going to get me closer to making money, but it does not. It doesn't. So don't start with social media. You start with list-building and you nurture your list. And lastly, you move to social media.


Social media, you are going to start by choosing just one platform, just one platform. And it's not the platform you like best, it is the platform where your ideal customer hangs out. So if your ideal customer is 65, you need to be on Facebook. If your ideal customer is a 40-year-old female who's into arts and crafts, you're probably on Instagram. If it's an 18-year-old, I think TikTok is where they're hanging out these days. I'm not quite sure. Is it Snapchat or TikTok? Probably TikTok. Is Snapchat even still a thing? I don't know. If it is professionals, then LinkedIn is where you need to be. So choose one platform and embrace it.


Start by using content from your lead magnet. Don't reinvent the wheel. You do not need to reinvent the wheel. It's more important that you get lead magnets out than that you create social media content. So take your lead magnet, chop it up into a million different posts, chop it up into different pieces, pull sentences from it, and use that for social media content. And if you already have an email list and you're nurturing that list, you're going to want to promote your weekly content on social media. In my business, if you go to my Instagram account right now, you will see just about the only thing that happens on there is the podcast. I promote the podcast twice a week. So twice a week it goes on the News Feed, and twice a week it goes on Stories. That's all that's happening over there. And you know what? For now, that's enough.


I know where I'm going with it. I have a clear strategy and plan. And to be honest, right now, my energy and my resources are allocated elsewhere. So I am not worried about not being on IGTV and not being on Reels and not being on this, that, and the other. And don't even get me started about Clubhouse and all the other things that are brand new, shiny objects. You don't need to be there; do not get distracted. Focus on list building. Focus on consistently adding value to your list. Promote your content on one platform. So I'm curious, what are you already creating in your business that can be repurposed and reused for social media so that you free up your time and your energy so that you can go move higher up in the hierarchy of things that need fixing? Instead of spending an entire Sunday afternoon coming up with all sorts of Reels dances you can do, spend that time coming up with better lead magnets. Spend that time batch-creating your podcast. Spend that time batch-creating your blog posts.


Your social media is going to be a hungry monster, but it'll always be there waiting for you. But when you pour your energy and your money into list building and list nurturing, you get a return on investment. And by return on investment, I don't just mean pie in the sky stuff, I really mean money in your pocket return on investment. So now you know what to fix first of the three things. So what are the three things again? Audience plus offer equals money. We fix our audience first because we need a tribe. We need a hungry crowd to feed. So audience is the thing you fix first, and you fix it in the order of list building, list nurturing, and social media.


Now let's look at what to fix in your offer. I looked up the definition of the word offer, because I was like, "how am I going to... " When you say offer, there's so many different things that come to mind. Is it my sales page? Is it the bonuses? Is it my course? What is an offer? I think every time, even when you create a social media post, you're kind of making an offer because you're offering people an opportunity to engage with you. So I was like, "How would I define offers?" So I looked it up, and one of the definitions I found was, "to present something to someone to accept or reject as desired. To present something to someone to accept or reject as desired." I think the keywords here is present. Yeah, you're presenting something. You have to present something. So if you've been list-building for 700 years, and you still haven't made an offer, you're not presenting something to people, right? You want to be presenting something to them, and you want to be presenting it to them pretty much from day one because that's the only way you're going to learn what offers convert and which ones don't.


And then the other keyword here is desired. They have to desire what you're offering because if they don't desire it, they won't accept it. Instead, they might reject it. And that sucks. It feels horrible when you make an offer and people reject it. My kids do not love broccoli very much. I love broccoli. I can eat loads of broccoli, I love it. But my kids don't, and I just feel like broccoli is a superfood and you need to eat broccoli. And anyone who gets raised in my house is going to eat broccoli. Dammit, you got to eat your broccoli. So when I put broccoli in front of my kids, they can either accept or reject it. So I have to come up with a better offer for them when I'm offering them broccoli. If I take the broccoli and I steam it a little bit, like literally just a tiny bit, because one of my kids actually really like raw food. So if I just steam it a tiny, tiny bit, so it's just almost just warm but still a bit crunchy and I cover it in mozzarella cheese, they're all over it. They eat more cheese than broccoli, but at least they get some broccoli in as well.


But what I've learned is if I take the broccoli and I put it in the blender and I fold into spaghetti bolognese, which is one of their favorite, favorite meals, they eat broccoli without knowing they're eating broccoli like there's no tomorrow. And I can triple the consumption of broccoli in my house just with this one trick; by folding it into the spaghetti bolognese. My children need broccoli. They do not want broccoli. My offer has to be something that they want, not something that they need. If I offer them what they need, if I present to them what they need, they can accept it or reject it. And they're going to reject it because they don't desire it. So I have to change it into something that they want so that they say yes to it. And then I may have the opportunity to give them what they need.


Your job as a marketer is to understand your ideal customer's desires and to package what they need into an offer that they want. In other words, sell them spaghetti bolognese and give them broccoli included inside. They're not going to want what they don't want. There are three components, audience plus offer equals money. We've already covered the audience. If we look at an offer, there are two very important parts to an offer that I want to talk to you about and that I want to share with you that you can taste and look at to see if it needs fixing. And those things are the promise and the benefits. The promise is the transformation that will occur after they've consumed and implemented what you're offering them. So it is the promise of the desired end state they're going to be in after using your thing, after reading your ebook, after taking your quiz, after downloading your audio, after signing up for your workshop.


I have a few examples for you of where we've just taken the promise of an offer and we've just... Well, actually, we've taken broccoli and turned it into spaghetti bolognese. So we've taken what somebody gave us as an offer, and we just asked a few questions about the ideal customer and then came up with a better promise, and that became the offer. So here's an example of a lead magnet. This lead magnet is coiled... called not coiled. It's called Oil Paint Mixing Guide. Oil Paint Mixing Guide. The person who creates Oil Paint Mixing Guide could say, "Well, everybody asks me for a mixing guide. Everybody wants to know how I mix my oil paints. Everybody wants to know how I get that great color every time. Because they asked for an oil paint mixing guide, I created an oil paint mixing guide." And so that goes on the landing page, and then it doesn't convert quite as well.


And so we change it to Perfect Color Every Time: A Guide to Mixing Colors for Confidently Painting in Oils. I'm going to read that again because dang, this is good. Perfect Color Every Time: A Guide to Mixing Colors for Confidently Painting in Oils. We're still saying, "Oil Paint Mixing Guide." We're just packaging it up as spaghetti bolognese. What the ideal customer here really wants is they want the perfect color every time. So what they might say is, "Can you show me how you mix paint so that I can paint in the perfect colors as well?" And what you hear is, "I want a color guide." And so what you create is a color guide. But the little bit that you missed or that you didn't include in that is, "I want the color guide so that I can create perfect color every time." So there's a good example for you of the promise and the benefit. The benefit is perfect color every time. Whereas, Oil Paint Mixing Guide does not include a single benefit, it is just a feature.


Here's another example from a workshop I recently saw. Career Reinvention Workshop for Women Over 40. Career Reinvention Workshop for Women Over 40. Now, I don't know about you, but when I'm hanging out with my friends, I've never used the words career reinvention. "Oh, I would love to reinvent my career." That's not how we talk. That's how we were taught to write in school, but nobody says, "I want career reinvention. Oh, can I please have some career reinvention?" The answer is no, you do not want career reinvention. What about Love What You Do Without Sacrificing Family Time: A Career Reinvention Workshop for Women Over 40. How's that? "Love what you do." That's what we say when we talk to our friends, we say, "I just want to love what I do without sacrificing time with my family." Love What You Do Without Sacrificing Family Time: A Career Reinvention Workshop for Women Over 40. That's much better, isn't it?


So the promise is love what you do without sacrificing family time. The benefit is you're going to love what you do without sacrificing family time. Spaghetti bolognese instead of broccoli. Still, you're offering the same thing, but you're wrapping it up differently. And here is an example for you from my own learning and from my own life and from my own business. So here's a course I used to sell and the promise of the course. The Fastest Way to Build Your List to a Thousand People. The Fastest Way to Build Your List to a Thousand People. I thought, "Who doesn't want that? Everybody wants to learn how to build their lists using Facebook and Instagram ads." Turns out they don't. So we sold A-Lister. The very first time I sold A-Lister, we sold it as the fastest way to build your list to a thousand people. When I surveyed the audience, I realized nobody wants to buy... Well, they did buy, but they told me it's a grudge purchase, buying something that teaches you how to build your list. Because it's not sexy, it's not what we want.


Instead, later, we turned it into Find Your People Online and Make Your First Sale. That's what they want. They want to find their people online. They want to find people who just wants to buy their thing. And they want to make their first sale. That's what they want. I know that they need to build their list, but I was giving them broccoli. Had to wrap it up as spaghetti bolognese. So when you learn how to make offers to your warm audiences, in other words, your email list and your cold audiences with your lead magnets using ads, then you can move on to fixing the third part of the equation. What is the third part of the equation? Audience plus offer equals money. Money is the third part of the equation, right?


So you need a hungry audience, you need a good offer with a clear promise and a benefit, and then you'll make some money. So if you're not making money, what are we going to look at? After we've looked at building your email list, we've looked at nurturing your email list. We've looked at social media to promote your lead magnets and your weekly contents. We've looked at lead magnet offers that has to be inviting and converting. Now we look at paid offers, making money. Paid offers. And under paid offers, we're going to look at three things. We're going to look at the number of people who are in your funnel. Because if you don't have enough people in your funnel, you need to fix that. Then we're going to look at the number of people who saw your offer. Because if you didn't get enough people seeing your offer, you need to fix that. And finally, we're going to look at the number of people who converted.


Now, I'm willing to bet that when you started listening to this episode or when you saw the title of this episode, What to Fix Next in Your Funnel, you thought I'm going to start with making money. You thought I'm going to start with, "Why aren't people paying me?" And you can see that we actually fixed that last because before we can make money, we need an audience and we need an offer. So the first thing we're going to fix when we're making money is the number of people in your funnel. Statistically, only four to 5% of the people who are in your launch, so in other words, people who sign up for your webinar or say, "Yes, you can send me this promotion." only four to 5% of them will convert. So that means you need at least 100 people to sign up for your webinar or your challenge or your workshop to make four or five sales.


A lot of people are surprised when I tell them this number, because they would build their email list to two or 300 and then invite the two or 300 to a webinar and have a webinar with about 20 people on it and then make one sale. Or maybe they make no sales. And they tell me, "But I had 20 people on my webinar, and only one bought." And I go, "well, that's fantastic. One out of twenty is great." And they're disappointed because they worked so hard to get the 300 on there. What they don't realize is, statistically, that is still a fantastic outcome because if you increase that 300 to 600, now you have two sales. If you increase it more, you have more sales. So I don't want you to feel disappointed when you have low numbers of people in your funnels to begin with, and you didn't make any sales. It is a numbers game. It's online marketing because it's online, and we need to get those critical mass.


So the question is, did you have enough people at the top of your funnel to make those sales at the bottom of the funnel? And if you didn't have enough people, what do you need to go back to? What are you going to fix then? You're going to go back to square one; fix your list building. You're going to go back to list-building, nurturing your list, sending them emails, posting on social media, creating an offer that converts, getting them onto a webinar or a workshop or a free thing, making them an offer. Now that you have more people, you're more likely to make a sale.


So the first thing you want to fix is the number of people in your funnel. The second thing you want to fix is the number of people who saw your offer. This is another one that we run into a lot. Will say, "Well, I had 20 people on my webinar, why did nobody buy?" And I say, "Well, how many of the 20 went to your sales page?" And then you go and look in Kajabi, and Kajabi tells you you had five people view your sales page. And I say, "Well, yeah, it's not that it didn't work, it's just that you didn't have enough people there." Your sales page should convert roughly around 20%. 20% of the people who come to your sales page should buy your course. So once you know you have enough people in your funnel, look at the number of people who actually saw your sales page and ask yourself if that's enough. 20% of the people who saw your sales page should be converting to sales.


If you feel that you didn't make enough sales, look at how many people were on your sales page and see if you had enough people converting from your sales page to a sale in order to know what to fix. If you didn't get enough people on your sales page, where do you start fixing it? You go back to square one: audience. Check that you've got a big enough audience. Check that you are adding value to them every week. Check that you're building your list on your social media. Check that you invited them to the workshop or the webinar on social media. Check that you had enough people in the launch. Check that you had enough people on the sales page. So that's the second thing, sales page. And the third thing is the number of people who converted.


So finally, after building our list, after nurturing our list, after promoting everything on socials, after making offers, after making free offers with our lead magnets, after making paid offers, if you've checked that you've had enough people in your funnel and you've checked that you've had enough people see your offer, then and then only do you check if you have enough people converting. A lot of people just look at the number of conversions and they become so emotional about that number that they forget to actually go back and check the data. Today, on one of the coaching calls inside The Launch Lounge, one of the students said, "It is such a beautiful dance between emotion and data. You have to lean into the emotions that you go through as an online course creator, and you have to build that resilience and that emotional fitness to lean into the emotions of the ups and the downs in order to get to a place where you can say, 'Now I can just look at it from a data perspective.'"


Because it really is only data, but it also is a lot of big feelings that goes with it. But if you just stop at the feeling and you never move through the feeling to get to the data, you risk staying stuck there, and you risk making the wrong decisions about how to fix it. And I see this so often when I see even... Sometimes I see multimillion-dollar online course creators who have hit a plateau in their businesses, who are not looking at their data and then desperately searching for some kind of an expert, some savior, someone who has some magic pill to come and save them from whatever they perceive to be the problem in their business. And it doesn't just happen to one-man shows, it doesn't just happen to five-figure businesses, I see it in seven-figure businesses. It's a bit scary when you see someone looking for a savior and you know that the savior is you need to be really, really, really honest with yourself about your data. If you stay stuck in those emotions, you're never going to be honest with yourself about your data. And then you're never going to learn what to fix.


Now, some people, when they're launching only need three students in a launch to have a profitable launch. Others need 300, and others need 3000. So how do you know if your conversion number is a good number or not? The question is you look at your ROAS. What does ROAS mean? ROAS stands for return on ad spend, ROAS, and it's pretty much a little sum that we use to work out, "Did you make any money?" Because we're putting money into ads on the front end and we're getting money out of our launch on the backend, so we want to know for every dollar I put into Facebook Ads, how many dollars did I get back? The equation is revenue over ad cost. And the idea is that that number should be more than one. If you put in $1 and you got out $1, you are still exactly where you were before you started launching. It would have been better to go and buy a pair of shoes.


If you put in $1 and you get out $2, then you have made money. Then your money has grown. For every $1 you put in, you got $2 out. So you made your dollar back and you might another dollar. That's a good vending machine. Now, ideally, we want the ROAS to be more than two because we got overheads to pay. We got to pay ourselves. We go to save some profit. But it depends on your business model how much you need in terms of return on ad spend for it to be profitable. So then if you want to make more money on the next round when you're launching, you need to go back to the original equation: audience plus offer equals money. And in order to make more money, you grow your audience. Then you make better offers, and then you sell more so that your return on investment becomes bigger and bigger and bigger than the money you put into ads. And that, my dear friends, is how simple it is to make money online. It's simple, hey. You think it's simple? Very simple. It's not easy.


Today's episode was content-heavy. Now, I know that some of you will be taking notes feverishly, and some of you might be going a little bit like, "What?" Wherever you're at right now with this content, I want you to know that it is exactly where you need to be. If you take one thing from today's lesson, from today's podcast episode, think about what that one thing is. Come over to Instagram, find me on Instagram. I'm salome.schillack. And if you can't spell that, I can't spell it either, just... I don't know, search for Facebook Ads and I might come up. Or just search Salome and maybe I come up. Or go to my website, shine and succeed, and you'll find it as well. Come and find me and tell me what the one thing is that you learned today that you're going to fix first, that you're going to do differently, that you're going to make a change. 


I really hope you loved the replay of this episode. I really loved going back and seeing what you all love to listen to. If you love this episode and you're a committed online course launcher who wants to learn how to grow your profits in your next course launch, and you want to know how to successfully scale your online courses business to 7 figures and beyond then I'd love to see you inside The Launch Lounge. The Launch Lounge is the only community online that is dedicated solely to helping you develop every aspect of your online courses business so that you can build your business to scale. With no one-size-fits-all solution just the right education you need when you need it. Coaching from our team of experts in different areas of launching and scaling and the best community on the internet The Launch Lounge is your online course building home if you want profitable online course launches that scale to 7 figures and beyond to get on the waitlist for our next in enrollment season go to www.shineandsucceed.com/launch

154. From Luxury Interior Design To Successful Online Course Creators with Sarah Cates of House Of Funk


154. From Luxury Interior Design To Successful Online Course Creators with Sarah Cates of House Of Funk

03 May 2022 | By Salome Schillack

What happens when the results don't keep getting bigger and better?

What if.....they start going…..down? 

Is your business over? Did you miss the moment? Is it time to call it a day and head back to the dreary office cubicle?

Don't panic; this is SO normal. And there are so many things you can do to get your online biz back on track. 

Starting right here!

This week on The Shine Show, you'll meet one of my brilliant clients, Sarah Cates from House Of Funk, a luxury interior design firm started by the awe-inspiring Sandra Funk. After testing the waters with online video content, and attracting interior designers with business questions, the team created The Interior Design Standard to help interior designers build thriving businesses. (Check out their awesome business here - warning: you'll encounter addictive, aesthetically pleasing design pics that'll make you want to renovate your whole house).

And it took off!

After 4 amazing launches, things were looking rosy. The future was looking bright. All was well.

…..until launch 5

The figures started going backward!


This was not the kind of funk they wanted to be in.

Rather than panic and run back to the safety of their thriving boutique design firm, Sarah & Sandra put their brilliant marketing hats on and made the brave choice to invest more time and resources into paid marketing.

And it paid off, BIG TIME!

If you're stuck on a results rollercoaster and you’re sick of the up-down-up-down, this episode is especially for you! 

Get ready to be inspired, have your brain sparked by some incredible ideas, and have a behind-the-scenes look at a 6-figure launch! Tune in now and hear Sarah's amazing story for yourself.

P.S. Have your launch results been a little southside as of late? I’d love to hear if Sarah’s story has inspired you to change up your online marketing. Nothing puts a bigger smile on my face than hearing your feedback. Slide into my DM’s and share your favorite takeaways from this episode!

When you subscribe and review the podcast not only does that give me the warm and fuzzies all over, it also helps other people to find the show.

When other people find the show they get to learn how to create more freedom in their lives from their online courses too!!

So do a good deed for all womenkind and subscribe and review this show and I will reward you with a shout out on the show!!


161. IOS Updates. Tools To Improve Performance


160. Navigating Fear and Reclaiming Personal Power With Claire Yee

S&S_P159_WP_Thumbnail (1)

159. Your Launch Failed.. Now What?


158. Learning To Value Slow Progress Over Instant Success When Chasing Your Dreams with Diane Evans


157. 3 Things Every Online Marketer Needs To Know To Successfully Scale Their Online Course Funnels


156. Three Design Trends The Algorithm Loves with Jacqui Naunton


155. What To Fix First In Your Funnel


153. Hiring an Integrator. How To Find The Right Person The First Time


152. How To Instantly Create More Freedom In Your Business


151. How I’m Slowing Down So That I Can Speed Up


150. How To Show Up As The Expert You Are And Overcome Your Imposter Syndrome


149. How To Find Your People Online and Finally Start Making Sales

Salome Schillack (00:00):
Hello, and welcome to episode number 154 of The Shine Show. Today's episode is called from luxury interior design to successful online course creators with Sarah Cates of House of Funk. It is such a delight for me when I get to interview our amazing, incredible, successful, ambitious, wonderful women and men who just do big things in this world. And you're going to hear me talk to Sarah about their previous launch, but not just about their previous launch, about how they started, what they've learned along the way and how they're scaling all the way up and up and up to multi six-figure launches now.

Salome Schillack (00:42):
Sarah Cates is the director of operations at the boutique interior design firm, House of Funk. These days, her main focus is running the company's B2B offering, the Interior Design Standard, an online course that gives interior designers a master plan for building their businesses. When Sarah is not keeping House of Funk running smoothly, she can be found chasing her two cats and experimenting with new recipes. So let's jump in and listen to my interview with Sarah Cates of House of Funk.

Salome Schillack (01:20):
Giving up your time and freedom to make money is so 2009. Hi, I'm your host Salome Schillack. And I help online course creators launch, grow, and scale their businesses with Facebook and Instagram ads so that they can make more money and have an even bigger impact in the world. If you are ready to be inspired, to dream bigger, launch sooner, and grow your online business faster, then tune in because you are ready to shine, and this is The Shine Show. Sarah, welcome to The Shine Show.

Sarah Cates (01:57):
Hi, thank you so much for having me on.

Salome Schillack (02:00):
I'm so happy you are here. I say to you guys sometimes, I love your business so much, I want to rub my face in it. Really, I love it that much. I am in love with the business that you and Sandra have created. So just tell the listeners really quickly, where did it start? How did you guys decide you want to do online courses as well? And then we're going to unpack where it is now.

Sarah Cates (02:28):
Yeah, for sure. So Sandra had been running and still does run a very successful luxury design firm. So I came on in 2016, and we realized we really need to add video marketing to our marketing strategy. So Facebook Live had just come out recently at that time and so that was our gateway to video. And so my coworker and I were talking and we were saying, "How are we going to get Sandra on camera? Anyone's going to be hesitant to go on video." But Sandra's so charismatic. She's so so good on camera. So we were so lucky that we had a founder and CEO who's just amazing at that stuff. So we had this idea that we would pop open a bottle of wine every Wednesday, because she loves wine too, and talk about interior design, just like for homeowners, how to design your home, the tradespeople you should bring in, just so they could get to know Sandra, and we would bring in more clientele that way.

Sarah Cates (03:39):
Well, within six to 12 months we had interior designers coming to the lives and asking her business questions. So for me I was like, "Okay, cool. All right, moving on." Whereas Sandra, she has entrepreneurship, it's in her blood. She comes from a line of entrepreneurs, and this gets her brain start rolling on ideas. Then she was invited to some conferences to speak about the business of design as well. So she went to this one conference and she had a line of designers after waiting to ask her questions about how she runs her business. So this continues to happen and she comes to us and she's like, "Guys, I think there's something here, we need to think about this."

Sarah Cates (04:29):
And so I'm pretty sure she had the idea of creating the program, the digital course, and this is completely new to us. We had never heard of digital courses. She had done B-School, so that was her only concept of a digital course, with Marie Forleo. And so we started building it. We had no email list. So we pivoted this live show, we call it Design Tips, and started just targeting interior designers and started creating lead magnets, now frontier designers, all while running our full service design firm at the same time. And we launched in March 2020. So we were actually due to launch April 2020, the world flipped upside down and we had designers reaching out saying, "We know you're going to release this program, can you release it now? Because we're going to be home for a few weeks." Not knowing that we're going to be home for much longer. And so we cranked it out. We were running really long nights, but we really wanted to get it out there. And we did. Again, we didn't know anything about digital courses. So our open cart was like two to three weeks long.

Salome Schillack (05:46):
Oh, that would've been exhausting.

Sarah Cates (05:48):
Yes. Looking back, it was kind of crazy, but we've learned a lot of things since then. So we launched to a list less than 1000 and we still hit six figures, welcomed in an amazing class of designers. And it was just such an awesome feeling. Because that first launch, you just never know what's going to happen. And the world was so crazy. But that is how we got into the digital course world.

Salome Schillack (06:17):
That is amazing. I love hearing stories about people who launched for the first time during COVID. And no one could have predicted what a profitable period that would've been for online courses. We all went into this crazy what's going to happen? What is happening to the world? What's going to happen to my business? What's going to happen? Pivot became the word of the day.

Sarah Cates (06:46):
Yeah, [crosstalk 00:06:47] exactly.

Salome Schillack (06:47):
But for our clients, and even I launched [ALISTA 00:06:52], my online course, for the first time in March 2020 as well, not knowing, literally the week when everyone got sent home. And I remember that fear and I remember that uncertainty and everyone I know who launched then did really well. And the rest of 2020 was such a profitable year for online courses. And then in 2021, it became a whole other story with Apple bringing in iOS and all other changes. But so your first launch was a six-figure launch and it was a very successful, and you loved the students that you brought in from a list of 1000 people?

Sarah Cates (07:34):
Yes. Yes. And they were-

Salome Schillack (07:36):
Holy bananas.

Sarah Cates (07:38):
They are our OGs, we call them, our original members. And we were just at a conference where we ran into a bunch of them and just hearing their success stories from implementing our program even to this day is just so awesome to see.

Salome Schillack (07:57):
I love that. I love that. So after that, did you know that there's a lot of things you don't know or how did you unpack that launch and learn, oh, we've got to go and learn all these things, or what came next?

Sarah Cates (08:15):
So we looked at the data and then I think what we started doing, I think I found Amy Porterfield's podcast and started taking as much as I could just from the podcast. Then I found your podcast, started taking as much as I could from your podcast. And so then we launched two more times. So our second launch, we more than doubled our sales from our first launch.

Salome Schillack (08:38):
Wow. [inaudible 00:08:40] hold on. When was this?

Sarah Cates (08:42):
This was fall 2020.

Salome Schillack (08:45):
Okay. All right. Always have to remind me the month. Americans talk in seasons. We don't talk in seasons.

Sarah Cates (08:50):
Oh, sorry, September 2020.

Salome Schillack (08:55):
It's the weirdest thing for me when you guys speak in seasons.

Sarah Cates (08:59):
That's so funny.

Salome Schillack (09:01):
September. Yeah, and I go, "Really? Is it is everybody? Like everybody speaks in seasons?" Okay. September. So about six months later?

Sarah Cates (09:11):
Yeah. Six months later we doubled it. And so I think really it was... Our list grew quite substantially during that previous launch. So we had all these warm leads. Sandra's still going to speaking events. It's still very all organic at that point. And then we launched again in the spring, but that was March or April, we launched again, again, another successful launch. Then we launched again, so our fourth launch, and that is when we saw our first dip in sales. And again, still welcoming in amazing designers. But from a business standpoint, when you see that first step, you go [inaudible 00:10:01] and you're like, "Well, we got to look at what's going on here." And so we were looking at the data and based on my research from just every digital course marketing and what people are saying, you need to grow your email list.

Sarah Cates (10:18):
And our list was not growing enough to keep up the momentum that we were hoping for in our sales. So at that point, I think after the third launch, between the third and the fourth launch, Sandra and I enrolled in Digital Course Academy. And you had a bonus lesson in that season, all about how to set up your first webinar ads. So in the back of my mind during all these launches, I'm like, "We have to add in ads, but it's so incredibly daunting." And I love tech. I've never been scared of tech and Facebook ads scared the crap out of me. So I took your mini lesson, which was so thorough and exactly what I needed as someone who was very scared and fearful of this, you walked us through step by step, exactly how to set up everything up, how to write your copy, graphics that work well. And we implemented that and we ran ads. And I was just happy that we successfully ran ads, but looking back, I could have tracked our data better.

Sarah Cates (11:32):
And coming out of that, as much as I knew, I still felt very ill-equipped as someone also who is trying to run so many other things within the business. So after we had that dip in our sales, Sandra and I both knew we needed to add in a paid ads element. So we went and interviewed a couple of agencies, including a Shine And Succeed, and it was an eye-opening experience. But also one more thing, iOS was coming down the pipe, and that also, I was just like, "Why are we going to try to do this DIY when there are people out there who are so good at it and who could bring in all the expertise?" And Sandra had a moment last year or two within her design business where she was like, "We need to hire the experts. We need to hire the HR expert. We need to hire the strategy and scheduling expert." And I was like, "How can we implement that into our digital course business?"

Salome Schillack (12:40):
I love that she thinks that way. And that's her luxury background. It's just you got to hire the best people if you want the best job done.

Sarah Cates (12:49):
Yes. And we're very adamant about doing our research and getting referrals and just taking in as much as we can. So the ads element was just as important and rigorous as anything else we do in terms of hiring or bringing on a new contractor or agent. So we had done those interviews and I was just so drawn to you and your brand, your mission, and just how welcoming. And I just felt so taken care of when we spoke.

Salome Schillack (13:24):
Oh, that makes me so happy.

Sarah Cates (13:26):
And I had gone through your mini training. I was like, "If this is anything like what she could do for us, if we bring her on to our team and we work together, then it's a no-brainer to go with Salome and Shine And Succeed." And I'm sure we'll talk about how we worked together in this past launch, but that's how we came to the point of wanting to start ads.

Salome Schillack (13:50):
That's fantastic. So I want to just point out something here. Ads, it's like you touched on the tech and how you took the mini course. You took the bonus that I did in Amy Porterfield's Digital Course Academy. And it helped you enough to be able to know which buttons to press, which levers to pull, how to put the copy together. If Facebook ads was a cake, you had the ingredients for the cake and you had the basic recipe. And so you could do a basic chocolate cake, right? But you don't want to do a basic chocolate cake.

Sarah Cates (14:30):

Salome Schillack (14:30):
You want to become a pastry chef. And learning to do it yourself and learning how to make a basic cake was enough for you to get you to a point where you then went, "But hang on, we want pastry chefs and we don't want to be pastry chefs. We want to hire pastry chefs, because that's the level we want to do it at." And when you get to that point, you realize, oh, okay, there's more to ads than just pressing buttons, pulling levers. There's so much more to it than just the pick, because I'm sure we are going to talk about some of the marketing stuff, but some of the initial conversations we had in the beginning was, okay, well, how do you... If we need you guys, we know you need to build your list. We know you need to build your list, but I'm not just going to whack on a bunch of list building ads.

Salome Schillack (15:25):
I want to make sure if you're putting money into ads, that's going to bring people into your email list, that they're the right people. And so we have to build this foundation right to know that we have the right things in place to track, whether these people actually become buyers in the end, because you guys started building your list like what, in January? And you launched in March, April?

Sarah Cates (15:49):

Salome Schillack (15:51):
So there's four months between that. So how do you know the money you spent in January is actually paying off for you? There's some foundational things you need in place. And then also, and we can talk more about this too, is that customer journey, that identifying your most profitable customer journey and being able to go, "Well, is every cent that I put into ads is it actually coming back to me, and how do I know that it's coming back to me? And am I taking people on a deliberate relationship building journey where they go from saying yes to my small thing, my lead magnet, to saying yes to my big thing, my paid offer and being excited about it?"

Salome Schillack (16:31):
So I want to just say kudos to you for taking on the tech, for starting your own ads, and then also for knowing when to hand it off and knowing when to just step away, and then how you guys have been so incredibly open in guidance has just been absolutely phenomenal for me, it's made such a joy to work with you guys. So let's go back a little bit and talk about the marketing decisions we had to make back when we started, which would've been the end of last year. What were some of the marketing things that you guys were wondering about, that you knew list building will help you with but that we still had to figure out as we went?

Sarah Cates (17:18):
So I think the big thing, like you mentioned, was how are we going to get quality leads on our email list? And another thing we realized, that you helped us realize, was we were launching to a very warm list. So whenever we opened our doors for enrollment, we had a lot of people chomping at the bit to get in because they had been with us for a long time. And then it felt like we had launched now to our warm leads quite a bit. And then we saw that dip in sales. So we were wondering what our first ad would be and that's when you were like, "Well, you don't want just any ad, what's-"

Salome Schillack (18:01):
You guys had like 750 lead magnets.

Sarah Cates (18:05):
Yeah. We had so many. It really felt like 750, that is accurate. And there's nothing more relieving than someone saying, "You only need a few really quality lead magnets." So we talked through the customer journey and realized that we wanted to come out with a really killer quiz, followed up with a really awesome guide that is totally related to the quiz. And then that all flows into our free module and our webinar and obviously our program.

Salome Schillack (18:42):
Okay. So we unpacked that kind of customer journey a little bit. And then we started running list building ads and the list building we're going great. Tell me a bit about your style of launching. Do you guys do traditional webinar, video series? Talk a little bit about this so that the listeners can get an idea of what are the mechanics of a multi six-figure launch?

Sarah Cates (19:05):
Ooh. Okay. So I'm not too familiar with the different types, but what we do though is our big strategy is the webinars. So we used to do three, this launch, we tried two in the front of our launch. We open our cart from Wednesday to Wednesday typically. And then we also have a great follow up, email series to the webinar, sales emails for anyone who didn't sign up for the webinar and then a great cart close series. And then we also do a couple of Facebook Lives within that week. And then leading up to launch, we do our pre-launch runway and we go live on Facebook for 12 weeks and we email that content out weekly as well.

Salome Schillack (20:01):
I love that. So you're warming up your list and you're warming up your socials and you're letting everyone else know. Do you guys announce when you go into your pre-launch phase, those 12 weeks? Do you guys announce to them when your court is going to open or when your webinars are going to be? Do you tell them your course is coming?

Sarah Cates (20:22):
So we will, if it comes up naturally in what Sandra is talking about on her show, in terms of just enrollment, she will say doors open again in X, Y, Z, and you can reserve your spot now.

Salome Schillack (20:37):
I love that.

Sarah Cates (20:39):
We don't talk about the webinar until a week before. The week before the first webinar. So [inaudible 00:20:48] once we start ads is when we start talking about it at all. Just so it feels fresh and new and someone doesn't enroll or register for the workshop that isn't for another three months.

Salome Schillack (21:00):
Yeah. And I think the important thing there is the workshop, the webinar is the vehicle to convert them to sales. And we want to be upfront about this all the time. So when we're in that pre-launch sequence, we're not secretively adding value to them with the intent of then sneakily put them on the webinar and sneakily selling them, to which I kind of sometimes feel like people have this sort of judgment that they... "That's why they don't want to sell on a webinar or that's why they feel like they have to teach so much on a webinar."

Salome Schillack (21:38):
And I go, "No, let's just tell them from day dot, we have this amazing, awesome program that you will love if you're here right now and having this conversation with me, the court will be opening again. We will be opening the doors again on this time." And then you just have conversations about whatever the things are that's coming up and bringing them back to the program is coming. And I love that you guys then within a week of it go, "Well, here's the more information about the webinar. And if you want to find out about the program, join the webinar and come and learn so that you know if it is right for you or not." That's so good.

Sarah Cates (22:17):
Yes, exactly.

Salome Schillack (22:19):
And tell me a little bit, let's talk a little bit, one of your best and cleverest, and I just look at that and I go, "This is such good marketing," is the free module. You guys give away a free module of your course, where did that idea come from and which module, how do you choose which module and why do you think it converts so high?

Sarah Cates (22:44):
Those are amazing questions. So we called it the demo module when we were first creating the program. And I cannot tell you for the life of me where we came up with that idea. But I've been feeling it was probably Sandra's idea to show them what the inside of the program could look like. And so what we did is we took one of our most popular concepts, which was... And this is also a presentation she would give at actual events. So we knew it was popular and well received. And so we turned it into this digital presentation and it is how she presents her process to a potential client on the interior design side.

Salome Schillack (23:40):
I love it.

Sarah Cates (23:40):
And so we put that out there and that was the first thing we would start marketing around when we first launched. And people loved it and we called it the demo module. Then years later, we're like, "Demo makes no sense. Let's call it [crosstalk 00:23:57]."

Salome Schillack (23:57):
It's not very enticing.

Sarah Cates (23:59):
Yeah, exactly. We got much better with our marketing copy, so we changed it to the free module. It actually lived on our sales page for a long time too, so they could opt into that. So that was also a big list builder when we were doing organic leads because that just lives there all year round [crosstalk 00:24:21].

Salome Schillack (24:21):
I love that. So instead of saying, "Join the wait list," you're saying, "While you're waiting, get the demo module"?

Sarah Cates (24:30):
Yeah, exactly.

Salome Schillack (24:30):
I love that.

Sarah Cates (24:32):
Exactly. So now we took it off the sales pitch, because we just wanted the one call to action, which was to reserve their spot. But we're thinking of new and different ways to add it into our lead nurtures and to our warmer leads and because it's so so good. And I just looked at our data, over 50% of our members take the free module. And there's like a small cell at the end, like our webinar, so they can see the program and it's also, it lives in our program provider so they can see all the modules, they just can't click on [crosstalk 00:25:16].

Salome Schillack (25:16):
They just don't have access to it. I love that.

Sarah Cates (25:18):
Yeah. But that really gives them a feel of what a digital course is, in case they've never even heard of what a digital program could be.

Salome Schillack (25:30):
Right. And I love how it creates inclusion for them, because now they're already included in your world. They're not on the outside looking in, they're already on the inside and they just need to walk through a few other doors. They're already coming to your house. They just don't have access to the whole house yet. They're just in the kitchen.

Sarah Cates (25:56):
Yeah, exactly. And we also have always been so... Sandra has always been so adamant about giving as much as she can for free. And the standard really came out of designers asking [crosstalk 00:26:12].

Salome Schillack (26:11):
Standard is the course name?

Sarah Cates (26:13):
Yes. The Interior Design Standard, it came from designers were asking her, "Can I get a copy of your contract? Can I get a copy of how you price the services? Can I get your full service process template?" And she built her business very holistically. So nothing... You really can't have the contract about having our process because it doesn't make sense about it. Same way with how we price. And that is the idea of why she didn't come out with just like a $500 contract. She really wanted to equip designers and she knew, if I just get my contract, it's not going to be enough. And so that's where the program came from too, is she wanted to give her entire business model to designers because she really wish she had that same resource when she started out. So through our free content, through our newsletters, the Design Tips, we give and give and give as much as we can. And the tools now to take the strategy that we talk about all year long is the program.

Salome Schillack (27:23):
I love that so much. So this year you started building your list, you went into your pre-launch, you had the free module and your results. Are we back up on where we were?

Sarah Cates (27:37):
Yes. Yes. We're up significantly, back to a few launches ago, we hit our sales goals. So now again, we have hundreds of designers in our membership and just could not be more thankful for your team and your help in... Oh my gosh, I didn't know when we were partnering out that we would be able... That you'd giving us as much insight on marketing in general for digital programs. And so that was just so pivotal along with the amazing ads that your team created and put out for us. So it totally paid off and we are just so excited to dig into the data because we haven't done our team meeting of the post-launch, but we're super excited.

Salome Schillack (28:30):
Yeah, I am too. And I will say, I saw some preliminary results yesterday and we're not done unpacking it because it takes a while to unpack all this data, but I'm very excited to dive deep into it. And you say you're grateful for the marketing insight that we shared and I'm just so grateful for you guys for being so open to learn, because this is our jam. We just love this. And I teach all of the students inside the launch lounge, inside our membership, where we teach all the things that I taught you guys. I teach them that it's like two hands and the two hands have to hold each other because traffic is just per ads, is just traffic. It is just more people. You just bring more people. But more people does not result in money.

Salome Schillack (29:29):
Good marketing, good funnels, good understanding of taking people on a deliberate journey from where you first meet them to all the way where they become your paying student. That is what makes traffic and conversion come together. That is what makes ads and launches come together. And when we get to work with a client who is so open to learning like you guys, it just makes me so excited. And that's why I say I want to rub my face in your business because I feel so privileged to get to play with other people's businesses this way. And my team is amazing at ads, and when we can bring my team and your team together, that's when the real magic happens. So that's fantastic. So now you guys have your whole new student cohort. How long did they stay in your course?

Sarah Cates (30:26):
It's lifetime access. We drip the modules out once a week, for six weeks and they're in a private Facebook group for two months. And then they get merged into the bigger Facebook group with all of our standard members.

Salome Schillack (30:42):
I love that.

Sarah Cates (30:43):
And that's free to them. Well, it's part of their purchase. And then they're in there for lifetime access along with getting the content for lifetime access too.

Salome Schillack (30:55):
I love that. That's fantastic. And what is next for you guys? What's the next iteration of this look like, or are you still holding off on making decisions about that?

Sarah Cates (31:09):
We are. So Sandra's an idea machine. She is a true visionary and it is so fun whenever we go away, we have awesome brainstorms because the possibilities are truly endless. And then we come back to our desk and we're like, "Okay, there's a lot to do." So we can't quite run with that stuff yet. So we are really taking the time these next six months to, A, look at ad performance, look at our marketing performance and general things like that. But also doing a lot of intake with our membership, asking them to provide us feedback, seeing how we can strengthen the standard as a program. We always feel like there's things to better in the program. It's never completed to us. And so we are really just listening, in listen mode, and we're excited to roll out some updates and keep it going.

Salome Schillack (32:11):
I am excited to hear all about that. Well, Sarah, you guys are just a joy and I want to say, I'm just going to put this out there and I will put it out there on the show so that it's public and everyone knows it. But I am looking forward very much to seeing you guys do your first seven-figure launch. And I don't think it's far off and I don't think it is a very unrealistic, I think it's... I have seen it a few times. I have been on the ad side of it a few times and I will tell you, you guys are on the absolute perfect path and on the right trajectory.

Salome Schillack (32:47):
So I'm very excited to see you guys get to seven-figure launches. That would be fantastic. And all those amazing designers that you're helping building luxury business and those beautiful homes, all the beauty you're creating. I love it. So congratulations to you and congratulations to Sandra and your whole team. You guys have done a phenomenal job. You guys are just open to learning all the time and you're just taking in so much. It is so rewarding for me seeing what you guys are creating. So congratulations.

Sarah Cates (33:24):
Well, thank you so much. That means the worlds coming from you. So I really appreciate it.

Salome Schillack (33:29):
Wonderful. And thank you for sharing all of this with The Shine Show listeners. If you have any questions from today's interview or if you want to share some feedback or just if you want me to... If you have any ideas that you want to share from today's podcast, just hit me up on Instagram, send me a DM, and I'd love to hear thoughts about this launch from you as well. And I hope that Sarah's story and Sandra's story really inspires you to know what is possible for you, know that you don't need to know it all to have a six-figure launch. You just have to take action and start somewhere and create something and you can create the success as well. Sarah, can you tell everyone where can they learn more about all of your business, the businesses, Sandra Funk, and the Standard and the House of Funk and all of the things that you guys are so good at?

Sarah Cates (34:33):
Yes. So you can check out our interior design business, houseoffunk.com. And then there's a to the trade tab there, so if you click that button, that'll take you straight to our digital program, which is interiordesignstandard.com. And then we're also on Instagram, houseoffunkdesign.

Salome Schillack (34:51):
And there's some beautiful images on Instagram. And if you are an aspiring interior designer, please go and check them out. Thank you so much, Sarah. I appreciate you being here.

Sarah Cates (35:02):
Thank you.

Salome Schillack (35:03):
Well, there you have it, my friends. I trust that this has inspired you to know that if you started well out of the gate and maybe after starting strong, things didn't quite go as smoothly as you hoped it would, or it didn't grow as fast as you would, I want you to just take comfort in what you heard us talk about today. It's never a straight path. It's also not an up and up and up sequence. It can be an up and up and down and down and up and down and up and down sequence. And especially as we see IOA stuff roll out and the market changing, it becomes even more important to really know how to market your business effectively, not just run ads, but how to market your business effectively. And that's what Sarah and Sandra is so good at.

Salome Schillack (35:55):
If you have any thoughts, any comments, any questions, please send them to me, DM me on Instagram. Let me know what your favorite takeaway is from today's episode. And let me know how you are going to get back up in case you have had a little bit of the case of not so up and up. Hope you have a lovely week and I'll talk to you again next week. Bye.

Salome Schillack (36:25):
Thank you so much for listening. If you had fun, please come back next week and remember to hit that subscribe button, so you never miss a thing.


153. Hiring an Integrator. How To Find The Right Person The First Time


153. Hiring an Integrator. How To Find The Right Person The First Time

26 Apr 2022 | By Salome Schillack

Kinda ready to hire an Integrator but not sure if it's the right move? Or perhaps you’re wondering, Inte-what now???

This week’s episode of The Shine Show is especially for you!

I’m joined by my work wife, honorary psychologist, punching bag, tissue box, life planner, and cyber angel, Integrator Chloe!

Hiring an Integrator was a pivotal point in my business, and having Chloe on my team made things go from stressy to progressy. She is my secret sauce for getting sh!t done!

Every visionary hits the ceiling at some point. Between juggling the systems, the financial stuff, the team, and everything in between, setting aside for your big picture thinking gets lower and lower down the to-do list. 

An Integrator will give you your time back and allow you to do all the dreaming and big picture planning. AKA the stuff you're really good at! Think about what you could create with all that extra time and the relationships you could nurture. Hand on heart, Chloe changed my life!

Today on The Shine Show, Chloe joins me and shares all things Integrator, from what exactly she does day to day (AKA everything) to how you know when you're ready to transform your life by hiring your own Integrator. If you’re looking for a superstar Integrator, but not quite ready to take on a full-time team member, Audacious Empires are your gals! They are the best in the biz, and you can stalk them here.




P.S Did you find this week's episode helpful? I love hearing your feedback. Jump over to my Instagram and let me know what you think and if Chloe’s wise advice has helped you take the leap to get yourself an Integrator!

When you subscribe and review the podcast not only does that give me the warm and fuzzies all over, it also helps other people to find the show.

When other people find the show they get to learn how to create more freedom in their lives from their online courses too!!

So do a good deed for all womenkind and subscribe and review this show and I will reward you with a shout out on the show!!


161. IOS Updates. Tools To Improve Performance


160. Navigating Fear and Reclaiming Personal Power With Claire Yee

S&S_P159_WP_Thumbnail (1)

159. Your Launch Failed.. Now What?


158. Learning To Value Slow Progress Over Instant Success When Chasing Your Dreams with Diane Evans


157. 3 Things Every Online Marketer Needs To Know To Successfully Scale Their Online Course Funnels


156. Three Design Trends The Algorithm Loves with Jacqui Naunton


155. What To Fix First In Your Funnel


154. From Luxury Interior Design To Successful Online Course Creators with Sarah Cates of House Of Funk


152. How To Instantly Create More Freedom In Your Business


151. How I’m Slowing Down So That I Can Speed Up


150. How To Show Up As The Expert You Are And Overcome Your Imposter Syndrome


149. How To Find Your People Online and Finally Start Making Sales

Salome Schillack (00:00):
Hello, and welcome to episode number 153 of The Shine Show. I have such a treat in store for you today. The episode is called Hiring an Integrator: How to Find the Right Person the First Time. And I am interviewing the lovely Chloe Porter, who has been, not just my integrator, but my sidekick and my psychic, my psychologist, my tissue box, my punching bag, my planner, my work wife, my everything for the better part of just over a year.

Salome Schillack (00:40):
About just over a year ago, the business was growing fast, and I was losing my mind. And I knew what I needed was an integrator, but I also knew that finding one in Australia can be tough, because ... If I was in the U.S., it might be easier, because at least there's a few people who know what an integrator is. In Australia, it was a little bit harder. But, I found Chloe, and she has completely changed my business, and allowed me to create the structures to, not just hire more people, but to hire more people and have happy team, and be productive, and continue to build and grow the business.

Salome Schillack (01:26):
So let me tell you a little bit about Chloe. Chloe is the captain of operations and business integration at Audacious Empires. She is the absolute queen of keeping the Audacious Empires wheels spinning. They're an agency that hires out integrators for hire. She's got the drive, the determination, capability, and care factor to smash goals and manage the Audacious Empire team. She listens to what you want, and identifies what you need to take your big vision and make it a reality, creating more time and freedom for you to do what you love most, and the reason you started your business in the first place.

Salome Schillack (02:10):
When Chloe's not working, she can be found sitting outside, listening to the rain, or out on her boat, with a rod cast in the water.

Salome Schillack (02:19):
I know you're going to love picking Chloe's brain with me today. I know you're going to love Chloe just as much as I do. And if you're considering hiring an integrator, even if you're in America, these girls are based here in Australia, but I can tell you from experience, as someone who works with people all over the world, these girls are so organized. They will organize your life from halfway across the world. And you can find them at audaciousempires.com. And on Instagram, they're @audaciousempires, and on Facebook, they're Audacious Empires. So, have a listen to Chloe, and if you're looking for an integrator, go find Chloe today.

Salome Schillack (03:07):
Giving up your time and freedom to make money is so 2009. Hi, I'm your host, Salome Schillack, and I help online course creators launch, grow, and scale their businesses with Facebook and Instagram ads, so that they can make more money and have an even bigger impact in the world. If you're ready to be inspired to dream bigger, launch sooner, and grow your online business faster, then tune in, because you are ready to shine, and this is The Shine Show.

Salome Schillack (03:41):
Chloe, welcome to the show. You have been my rock, and my therapist, and my organizer, and all the things throughout 2021, so I'm so happy to have you on the show, to share with all the listeners how amazing the work is that you do, and how they can find a Chloe of their own as well. So, welcome.

Chloe Porter (04:08):
It's great to be here. Thank you so much.

Salome Schillack (04:10):
I'm so glad we do this. You are so behind the scenes. The students don't even see you, because you're never in the community or in anywhere visible, except you're visible to me every time something drops on the floor and I'm crying, Chloe's there to pick it up, or when I'm running light with deadlines, or when I'm the bottleneck in the business, Chloe's there to help us.

Salome Schillack (04:38):
So, I just want to tell everyone listening a little bit of the story of how I came to you, and then, we can dive in and talk about the history of what you guys do at Audacious Empires, which is the company that Leanne Woff founded that you work for. And then we can dive deep into all things, being a VA, being an integrator, being an online business manager, and how to hire someone like you, and where can people find things?

Salome Schillack (05:06):
So let me wind the clock back a little bit. It was December 2020. So it was mentally, I want to say, it was a time where 2020 had thoroughly settled in. The initial shock of what 2020 was going to be had worn off. And I think the initial pivot/crazy hustle energy that we all went into from, say, March to about August, September of 2020, had kind of died down, but also started taking a much deeper hole on, I think, everyone's mental health and work capacity.

Salome Schillack (06:05):
And we were at a point where we were seeing that COVID is not going to go away very quickly, it's here to stay. And at that point in time, I had only just launched A-Lister a few months before I'd launched The Launch Lounge a few months before. There were only three other people, other than myself, in my team. It was Hannah, the ads manager, Caroline, the account manager, and Ashley, who was literally doing everything else at that stage. Ash was my copywriter, my designer, my organizer, my everything, my community manager.

Salome Schillack (06:43):
And Ashley resigned because she was pursuing a career in therapy. And so I was left with this fast growing business in the middle of COVID, and I just went, "What is the best thing that I can do for my business right now?" I know I don't need more help in terms of managing clients, because Caroline and Hannah had that down pat, they were nailing that, but I knew I definitely need more help on the courses side on the side where I'm working with students, and launching courses, and putting content together, and the podcast, and everything.

Salome Schillack (07:30):
And so, I remember it was like this really spontaneous moment. I was sitting on my couch upstairs, and I just went, I need an integrator. I need someone who's more than just a virtual assistant. I need someone that I don't want to have to teach how to help me. I want this person to be qualified. And so I remember going to Google searching it and couldn't find anything. And then I went to LinkedIn and I typed in "integrator" and you guys came up, and I went to the website. And everything on your website used all the right words that I was exactly what I was looking for. And I couldn't believe my luck that you guys are actually in Australia as well.

Salome Schillack (08:17):
So I think you and I hopped on a quick call, and then I met with Leanne, and it was literally within a week or two, we had contracts signed, and we were ready to go. And that's how you came on board.

Salome Schillack (08:31):
And I can honestly, honestly say, I do not know what I would've done in 2021 if I didn't have you guys. So for that, I'm so grateful, and I want you to share all the magic you gave me to all the listeners.

Salome Schillack (08:49):
So that was a very long intro, but I felt like I needed to tell the story of where I was and how I was feeling when I brought you in. So maybe you can tell us a little bit of, from your perspective, what did you see when you came into my business?

Chloe Porter (09:06):
Yeah. So straight away I could tell that there was a lot of overwhelm, a lot of, "I need more time but I don't know how to get at it," and quite a bit of, "This is what I want to achieve, but I know I can't do it alone. And I don't really know how to go about it in the best possible way," which is something we say with a lot of people that have really great ideas, but they don't know how to launch them successfully, or how to even plan them properly. Lots of people will jump into action mode before they do the planning, and before they know it, they've jumped into action mode so fast that they haven't actually achieved the end result that they need or that they want. And then they kind of go, "Oh, crap, I should have done the planning first."

Chloe Porter (09:53):
So when you came to us, you had three team members, lots and lots of ideas, lots of good things going, you just needed a little bit more help, and you were growing, in which we started overhauling your organizational structure, your file storage structure. All of those core things that a lot of people don't realize are super important, and they kind of just get left behind, when the reality is that those things matter, because everything you do is dependent on that. If you don't look at those first, you're going to have burnt out team members, overloaded team members, things falling through the cracks, and then stress. Stress and overwhelm.

Chloe Porter (10:42):
So we kind of started with the core things, organizational structure, file storage structure, project management structure, all those things. Then we looked at, okay, what are the things that we want to do, and who do we need to help? And then that's how it came to be the bigger team that we are now, which I think we have, what, about 9 or 10. 10 of us in total.

Salome Schillack (11:04):
11, if I count my husband.

Chloe Porter (11:07):
And every person has a unique role, and without them, the business could not function in the way that it does now. And on top of the launch lounge, now we have VIP, we have lots and lots of students, we just have a lot of things going on. And it just couldn't have happened if we didn't focus on the core things first.

Salome Schillack (11:27):

Chloe Porter (11:28):
So that was super important. And I'm glad we did that.

Salome Schillack (11:31):
I am too. For us creative entrepreneurs who always have new ideas and always could see ... We are so good at seeing where the next big thing is going to come from, or what the next big idea is, or what the next iteration of something is. And we are not always very good at looking back, and seeing that we leave a trail of chaos behind us, as we innovate and come up with new ideas and things. And so, I've always thought of myself as a fairly organized person, but even a fairly organized person when things have grown fast, and the capacity, you literally become out of capacity. That's how I felt. I felt like I was out of capacity.

Salome Schillack (12:30):
And then organization is the first thing that goes out the window. And the irony is, you just end up working more because now you can't find that folder, or you don't know where you saved it, or you accidentally deleted it, which has happened to me multiple times, or it's just you have to do things twice, that if you just plan it, you would've been more efficient, and just needed to do it once.

Salome Schillack (13:02):
So there's this kind of overwhelm that you talked about, that as a creative entrepreneur, you just need someone with a fresh set of eyes, who's not also overwhelmed, and who has the skill to create organizational systems because that's a very unique skill. Is this ability to see the big picture, but also break it down into smaller chunks. Not a lot of people have that skill. And you have that skill in leaps and bounds. You are very good at that.

Salome Schillack (13:34):
So tell me a little bit about the first things that you guys did when you started working with me. I remember we had a call and you guys said, "Okay, tell me everything." And I think I just verbal-diarrhead for about an hour. And then you said, "Okay, got it." And I was, "No, you don't. No, you don't, you don't got it." You were like, "No, I'll come back to you with a 90-day plan." And I was like, "Sure, okay. I look forward to seeing what you produce." And then you came back and you nailed it.

Chloe Porter (14:11):

Salome Schillack (14:11):
I was blown away. Nailed it.

Chloe Porter (14:15):
Yeah. So what we normally do is, we hold about a 60-minute to a 90-minute deep dive call, and it's where we just listen, and you just literally start talking. "These are the things I want. These are the things I'm having trouble with." This is the thing I kind of see, but I don't know what to do. This is how I'm feeling. These are the people on my team." Absolutely everything that you can do, we get you to talk about. And then we just take notes in the background, and listen to you because listening is really important too. Anyone can take notes and go, "Okay, I'll just come up with a plan, take your money, give the plan to you, help you with the plan, then leave."

Salome Schillack (14:57):

Chloe Porter (14:57):
Listening is super important to actually help the person who needs help, not just with tasks. So with, "I'm feeling overwhelmed, can you help? I want more time back, can you help? I want my expertise to go into this area of my business instead of where it is going now, can you help?" You've really got to listen to all those things.

Chloe Porter (15:20):
And then from that session we walk away, we review everything again, and then we pull together a really detailed 90-day plan, which is going to get you from A to B, with the biggest impact. So we go back and listen to all of the goals you had, which one is going to have the biggest impact, and what needs to happen to get you there? Because it's never just going to be one, two, three steps, there's always going to be quite a few things.

Chloe Porter (15:52):
And from there we create that detailed 90-day plan, and we take into account who's on your team to help, what bits can we do, and what bits need minimal input from you? Because we already know course creators, and coaches, and things, don't have a lot of time, so we don't want to be putting things on their plate that takes more of their time. So it's, what can everybody else do, and what small little bits do we need from you just to keep the momentum going to reach the goal?

Chloe Porter (16:22):
And then we start assigning dates to things and all of those nitty-gritty detail bits. And then we come together, we review it together in great detail, we tweak whatever you'd like to have tweaked, and then once we're happy with it, then we go into action mode. But in action mode, we also catch up regularly [crosstalk 00:16:42], whether that be phone call, Zoom, Slack, there's always communication available.

Chloe Porter (16:49):
And we just catch up and run through, okay, this is where we're at. These are possibly the blockers we've run into, maybe you've had a change in direction. Like we've seen, okay, we've gotten this far with this, but actually want to turn a little bit, what can we do to now change up without having a massive impact? Because we know that people will often want changes, but what we want to make clear at the same time is we can add those changes in, but is it going to stop you from reaching your end goal?

Salome Schillack (17:22):

Chloe Porter (17:22):
And then we kind of talk about that, because if it is, you don't really want to be wasting, one, money, and, two, time. And we don't want you to be doing that either. And we also don't want you to have 10,000 other new ideas and lose sight of that original goal. So we kind of just keep you aligned with it, keep it in the light, in the forefront, make sure it's all okay, and then we just keep going.

Chloe Porter (17:49):
And as we're going, we might pick up new things along the way, and go, "Hey, I noticed this. There's room for improvement with this. Let's talk about this. This would have a big impact too if it was addressed in this light." And if it's something that doesn't really matter right now, we'll put it on the back burner. We know it's there and it needs addressing, but doesn't have to happen right now, because then when we're done, we can come together again, and talk about these are the other things we've noticed. If we did this, this is the result it would have, and then we just keep going. And before you know it, everything has grown. It's blossomed, everything's running smoothly, and it's great.

Salome Schillack (18:27):
And then people like me, we can just come up with new ideas-

Chloe Porter (18:30):
That's right.

Salome Schillack (18:32):
... to create new chaos for people like you to sort through and organize. And so the spiral continues.

Chloe Porter (18:39):
But it also means too, that now you have the head space, and physical space to be able to give your attention to areas of the business and even team members who actually need you. You're no longer bogged down with checking emails, troubleshooting techy problems, setting up automations, doing all the things that you're kind of like, "Ugh, I hate doing it, it scares me, or I really don't want to do it. Someone else could be doing this."

Salome Schillack (19:07):

Chloe Porter (19:07):
And you can actually go and create new products, and courses, new content, communities, engage with your students, your clients, all those things, and you'll feel happier. You'll feel so much better.

Salome Schillack (19:20):
Yeah. I remember ... So there's so much that I want to unpack with what you've just said. After we agreed on the 90-day plan, one of the things that have consistently changed is our SOP project, right?

Chloe Porter (19:37):

Salome Schillack (19:37):
We started a project to SOP, and SOP stands for Standard Operating Procedure, and it's just like a step by step guide on how to do anything in the business. I had tried for three years to get everything SOPd. And I've hired, literally, I want to say three other people to do it, and nobody could ever get it done or get it done right, or get it complete ... It was just a nightmare. And when you started, I saw you have a really good system for how to do it.

Salome Schillack (20:08):
But that's one of the processes that have gotten sidetracked many times because either we went into something and saw, well, hang on, this isn't necessarily the best system. We want to overhaul this system, we want to change this system, but we don't have the right person in the right role to overhaul this. So we first need to go and find the right person for the role, and then have that person overhaul how they're going to do this, and then we can record it. So sometimes it was things like that.

Salome Schillack (20:41):
Or sometimes it was things like the podcast, and we go here is the current SOP, and then someone tries to implement this and we go, it's been recorded, but it doesn't make any sense. So let's do that over. So I like what you say, you have to listen, and you have to be able to pivot and change without compromising the original goal.

Chloe Porter (21:06):

Salome Schillack (21:07):
I think that is so important. And that's where it's really important, when you have someone in your business who helps you build the structure of your business, that, that person really buys into your vision, and into your goals for your business as well.

Chloe Porter (21:23):
Yeah, it's super important. And then that's where the difference is, between a VA, and an OBM, or an integrator coming to play too. Because lots of people think, "Okay, I need help with this, I need help with this, I need help with this." They go and hire a VA, and they go, "Oh, okay, they can't actually do what I wanted them to do." Because a VA is typically one that can follow a set of instructions to complete a task without looking at the bigger picture, without looking any deeper. It's, "Here you go. Can you please go and create these Canva images and schedule these posts. Here's a really detailed SOP on how to do it and a video, off you go."

Chloe Porter (22:05):
They go and do that. Some bring it back. But they haven't looked any further. So if something else has had an impact or anything like that, you are not going to know until something breaks, or it's gone live, or whatever it is. Then you realize, oh, okay. But the VA doesn't have necessarily the skill or the experience to see that part to do that.

Salome Schillack (22:27):

Chloe Porter (22:29):
And they usually charge about $30 to $40 an hour.

Salome Schillack (22:34):
I think that's in Australia. I think in the U.S., it might be a little bit cheaper.

Chloe Porter (22:39):

Salome Schillack (22:39):
I have friends who hire VAs in the U.S. for about $25 an hour, and in Australia it's probably around $35.

Chloe Porter (22:48):
Yeah. Whereas if you had an OBM or a business integrator, and you said, "Okay, I want to do this. How do we go about it?" They don't just look at that one thing you're talking about, they look at all the things before and all the things after as well, because you could have an idea on how to do this one piece, and it's not until look at the bigger picture that they then go. "That's a really good idea, but perhaps that system you've picked for it isn't going to work because X, Y, Z after, or X, Y, Z before." They look at the bigger picture.

Chloe Porter (23:25):
And they're always looking for improvements, things to improve, things to better help you, better help the business. And they come up with solutions. It's not just, "Oh, Salome, I found this issue. We need to fix it." And you go, "Oh, okay, well now I've got to think about what can you do?"

Salome Schillack (23:41):

Chloe Porter (23:41):
Before they even say anything, they tend to already come up with a couple of solutions, and then they come back to you, and talk to you about them, and then they come up with something together that feels good, and then they go away and implement, whatever it is.

Salome Schillack (23:57):
I love that. And I think, when you think about how an online courses business grows, when you start out, it's just you and you're doing everything, and you're having to figure everything out by yourself. And then when you have a little bit of spare cash, you can start buying back your time, and that's when you hire a VA, and literally is someone ... I've hired VAs to help me publish the podcast, because I had a system, I just have to show them which buttons to press, which levers to pull, when to put what in, where, and you can easily outsource that. I've had VAs to do to publish social media content, publish the podcast on my website. Do what else? I'm trying to think what else have I hired VAs. Send out emails in my CRM. Those are the sort of things that a VA can help you with.

Salome Schillack (24:53):
And then there's occasional VAs that you need like when you have a big launch and you need someone to just be your backup on the webinar, or you need someone to help you schedule mass emails, or something like that. So that's typically when you would hire someone that you pay by the hour, or you pay them for a once off project.

Chloe Porter (25:16):

Salome Schillack (25:16):
The problem with those that I found, because this is one of my big frustrations with hiring VAs at that level, is, when you get to that point where you're not making enough money, that you can hire someone to be an employee in your business, but you can maybe ... Let's say you can hire someone for 5 hours a week or 10 hours a week, what's your advice? Because what I struggled with at that level was, you kinda have to take what you can get.

Salome Schillack (25:49):
And it's harder to manage someone in terms of making them live up to your values and deliver work at your standard when you pay them by the hour, and they just have to follow a certain set of instruction. So what's your advice to someone who's just at that point where they have the cash to hire someone for 5 or 10 hours, but they're not yet at the point where they can say to someone, here's job security, or here's at least contractor security for you, in that, I'm going to pay you the same amount every month, and you're going to have a certain number of hours every single week? What's your advice to that person starting out, finding the VA at the hourly rate, find someone who can really match their values, and match their standard? How do you go about finding that person?

Chloe Porter (26:43):
My advice is to, first, really map out all the things that you need a VA to help you with first. Because like you said, a lot of VAs will have set hours, so 20 hours a week, 20 hours a month, whatever it is, so you have to match that. And you don't want to get to a point where you can for the first three weeks and then you're starting to struggle to give them things, but you still have to pay that same rate.

Chloe Porter (27:11):
So look at all that first, and then start looking for a VA, but don't just jump on the first VA you see. Jump on a Zoom call with them, get to know them. What are they about? What do they like? Understand how they think, how they talk, how they feel, all those things, because that's going to build connection. Without connection, they're not really going to care about your business, you're not really going to get the results out of them that you want. So connection is extremely important if you want to find someone that you vibe with.

Chloe Porter (27:46):
So I would advise that, first, look at all the things that you need help with, then go and find somebody, and look at what they're offering too. And also be respectful of that as well. It's okay to feel, I don't want to pay a VA $40 an hour, that's fine, but you don't really want to come off as trying to negotiate with them to bump that down either, because there'll be a reason why they've priced themselves at that. And that's okay. But I would definitely be jumping on a call with a couple, and trying to get to know them, and trying to see if there's going to be a connection there. Because usually you know if you're not going to connect with someone. And that's super important.

Chloe Porter (28:28):
And if you feel like you can give them the job anyway, without a connection being there, you're probably kidding yourself because it'll be okay for the first couple of weeks, and then when issues start happening and you try and address them with them, care factor's not there, the connection's not there. It's all just going to fall apart.

Salome Schillack (28:46):
Yes. And you're probably going to spend at least a month really suffering, trying to figure out, is it me, or is it them?

Chloe Porter (28:53):

Salome Schillack (28:55):
How do I bring this up with them? All those things I think about.

Chloe Porter (28:59):
And then that ends up being a really icky conversation, and all of those things.

Salome Schillack (29:03):
Yes. And I think it's important too, that you can tell a VA, even if it's someone you bring in as a part-time contractor for a few hours, that you can tell them some of your core values. And I learned this the hard way because I hired a VA once, and I had about four or five interviews, I gave about two or three of them a test job to do. I never had the conversation about values. And as soon as she came on board, and the funny thing is, I said to her, "Is there anything else I should know that's going to make you successful in this job?" And as soon as she started, within a week, she told me, well, in a month's time, she'll be traveling overseas for three months, so she'll just be working from her computer flexibly while she's overseas.

Salome Schillack (29:58):
And I distinctly remember having the need for someone who's behind their computer during office hours that I can talk to and that we can go back and forth. And I had to let her go literally almost within a couple of weeks of hiring her. And I felt like she had betrayed me, I felt like she had lied to me.

Salome Schillack (30:21):
Now, whether that's true or not I can't remember, because I don't remember at all, but I felt that way, but I don't think I ever specifically said, "Well, this five hours a week, are they in Brisbane local time, or are they behind your computer, or are they while you're traveling?" Because that's a horse of different color. It's just a very different deal that could work very well for someone else but didn't work for me at that stage. And so then you're back to square one. You put yourself back like proper month.

Chloe Porter (30:54):
Yeah, that's right. So that's why it's really good to jump on a call with them, and try and get to know them, and see what do they want out of this, how do they like to work, how do they learn? All those things. Because someone can say, "Oh, I can give you 20 hours a week." And like you said, suddenly that's not during office hours and that's what you needed.

Salome Schillack (31:14):

Chloe Porter (31:15):
It could be that they're doing that at nighttime, and well then you need to give them information, or they need to ask you for something. And then time stops for 12 hours until you are awake again.

Salome Schillack (31:26):

Chloe Porter (31:29):
So it's really important to [crosstalk 00:31:29].

Salome Schillack (31:29):
And that can work because we have team members who works in different time zones than us, but as long as everybody ... My number one value is be engaged, which means you are on top of your work, and you do what you said you're going to do, and you do it when you said you were going to do it, and you communicate very clearly if anything is going wrong. And that's the only way it can work with different time zones or with different work schedules.

Salome Schillack (31:53):
So one of the things, when I got to the point where I was hiring you guys, I knew very clearly that I don't want a VA. I knew very clearly. And I remember it being quite a weird space for me to be in, because one of the things everybody says is, "Are you still reading your own emails?" And I was kind of like, "I don't mind reading my own emails. I have bigger ... I want someone who can solve bigger problems than reading my emails." And I knew that I need someone who will not require me to teach them how to do the job. So I knew it wasn't going to be a VA that's going to rely on me to teach them how to manage a project, or how to create a system, or how to manage contractors who are on deadlines. So I knew very clearly I need someone who already has experience and already has the skills. And that's why I was so glad when I found you guys.

Salome Schillack (33:01):
So talk to me a bit about, when do you think an online course creator is ready to hire an integrator or an integrator agency? Because you guys are an agency, so you don't work for me full-time again. I didn't have the capacity for a full-time integrator, so I just went with you guys as an agency, few hours a week, but consistent, reliable, and you become part of my business, and you know what to deliver. So when would someone be ready for someone like you guys?

Chloe Porter (33:32):
Yeah, so that's right. First I'll just say, we fully immerse ourselves into your business, so your business becomes like our own. We become part of your team. We build a relationship with you and your team. We know your business inside and out as if we were an actual employee of your business. So when we're interacting with your team, and with you, and with your students, with your clients, it's like we are inside your business, because we are, but we're not. You know what I mean?

Chloe Porter (34:03):
So you'll know if you're ready for an integrator when you start having all of these floating ideas, all these great ideas, but you're not sure how to put it into action, and you need somebody else to help with business decisions. Things like how much should I charge for this? What should I put in it? What should the content be? What systems do I need to pull together to make it happen? How should I promote it? All of those things. So it's not just, "I need somebody to help me set up an automation." It's the entire picture, what course platform should I choose? What's CRM should I choose? What tools should I use from my community? Should it be a Facebook group, should it be slack?

Chloe Porter (34:48):
All of those things you need. When you start having all of those thoughts and you don't know how to pull together is when you go, okay, I need a business integrator, and I need somebody who will manage my team, manage my projects, make sure shit gets done without me micromanaging. You don't want to micromanage anymore.

Salome Schillack (35:08):

Chloe Porter (35:08):
You don't want to do that. So when you realize, I don't want to do that anymore, but I want to make sure things happen, and it happens right, that's when you know, you need a business integrator.

Salome Schillack (35:18):
That is right. And that's exactly how it unfolded for us. I feel for a few months, it was just you and me cleaning up a whole lot of systems, and it was only really from the middle of last year that we went on a really big recruitment drive, and we just added a lot of people to the team because suddenly the systems were able to carry more people.

Salome Schillack (35:42):
And as soon as the system can carry more people, you see the gaps, and then you go, oh, okay. We can bring someone in at the bottom as a junior here because you've created a system that will mean that this junior can learn what they need to do very quickly, or do it from an SOP. So I feel like you hire an integrator when you see the systems become bigger than what you can manage yourself, and when you know that you need someone senior enough who can think through the process, but not so junior that they need to do the process, I think that-

Chloe Porter (36:31):
Correct. So you're thinking, I want to be CEO, not micromanager, I need somebody below me to manage all the things, and all the people, and then all the juniors come in underneath that.

Salome Schillack (36:43):
Yeah. And where do you see ... I mean, I've thought about this a lot, because we often look to other online course creator, businesses to see best practice in our own industry. But I also like to look at corporate, and as much as I despise anything corporate and feel allergic to anything corporate, I do feel like there's a lot that we can still learn from corporate in terms of how to do systems, and processes, and productivity, and a lot of corporate stuff is also very unproductive, but we can still learn a lot from them.

Salome Schillack (37:16):
So I looked at them and I go, "Well, where does a general manager fit in, and where does an operations' manager fit in?" So maybe talk to me a little bit, what do you think about those two?

Chloe Porter (37:28):
So I usually see it as, you have the CEO at the top, and you have the business integrator or OBM. Usually OBM and business integrator are meshed into one.

Salome Schillack (37:40):
OBM stands for Online Business Manager?

Chloe Porter (37:42):
Online Business Manager, yep. But sometimes businesses will have just a business integrator and then an OBM. But that's usually when they're much bigger. So the OBM, her brain has to go somewhere else, not just on project management anymore. But they can mesh, and they usually tend to.

Chloe Porter (37:58):
Then below there is where you are usually really have a marketing manager, or a general manager, or something like that, kind of depends on how broad your business is, I guess.

Chloe Porter (38:08):
And then underneath that, your VA, your junior-level team members and all those things. That's how I see it, but it's very dependent on the business type, your businesses, all of those things.

Salome Schillack (38:26):
Yeah. Because one of the things that I've been thinking through is, the business operations in a business where marketing is the job, there's no difference between the business manager and the marketing manager.

Chloe Porter (38:42):

Salome Schillack (38:43):
There really isn't. Because the only thing that, that marketing manager ... The only business piece that doesn't fall under that marketing manager is finance and HR, which is a small piece of what the CEO needs to do anyway. So in my mind I was kind of like, okay, so the business manager and the marketing manager in a business where the job is marketing is the same thing.

Chloe Porter (39:11):
Correct. Yeah.

Salome Schillack (39:12):
Kind of helping me a little bit.

Chloe Porter (39:14):
Yeah. So you just need to look at what's your business made up of? What are the areas, what are the main ... Start with the big chunky areas, and then work your way down.

Salome Schillack (39:26):
And in an online courses business, the big chunky areas is going to be traffic. So finding new people, to bring new people into your community, either via podcast, a blog, or a video, something, YouTube channel, and then social media to drive people to those channels, Facebook and Instagram ads, ACO, anything that brings traffic to you, conversion is the second big chunk. That's your online course launches. It's your evergreen funnels. It's all of that.

Salome Schillack (39:59):
And then retention or customer service, which is your delivery of your program, so you showing up as the coach, you showing up as the teacher, someone building it in Kajabi or in whatever platform you use, and then handling customer service, I guess. So those really or the big chunks.

Chloe Porter (40:18):

Salome Schillack (40:19):
Yeah. Okay. How does someone into a job like yours?

Chloe Porter (40:27):
Oh, good question. I got lucky. So we were originally Virtual Infinity founded by Leanne. And we started off as virtual assistants, doing general kind of things, research and smaller admin tasks, all of those things. And then I found Leanne, and was super interested in this kind of work. I thought I've never heard of this before, sounds really interesting, and I'm always up for learning new things. And I always have wanted a role where I'm continually growing, like the growth never stops. Yeah.

Chloe Porter (41:12):
And so I kind of landed in her lap that way and we just gelled. We just got on before we knew people, our clients, and friends, and things were starting to think we were actually sisters. We had a client that we had had for, I think about two years at the time, and one night she was talking to us and she said something about sisters. And I said, "What?" And then she's like, "Yeah, you're sisters." And we were like, "No, we're not." And she's mind blown, couldn't believe that we were not sisters.

Chloe Porter (41:45):
And then before we knew it, we were actually doing more than just virtual assistant work. We were making big decisions with clients, helping them create new products, and new courses constantly strategizing with them, finding ways to better streamline their business. All of those things that then we went, we're no longer VAs, we're with something more. And then that's how Audacious Empire came about, and our team started to grow as well.

Chloe Porter (42:16):
We had people with special technology skills, people with strategy skills, people with marketing skills, all of those things. And we just grew. But I remember just doing virtual assistant kind of tasks, and then starting to do the more strategic things, and operations, and organizational structure and stuff, that's when we looked at everything again and went, "We're more than a virtual assistant now." We just grew. Our skills had grown, we constantly invest in training, we're always upskilling, all those things, that's when we went, "We're not a VA anymore." We are online business managers, we are business integrators, without us, a lot of people couldn't be where they are. But that's how Audacious Empires came about.

Salome Schillack (43:09):
Fantastic. That's awesome. So I guess it starts with just learning VA stuff and then like anything, the more you learn, the more you learn, the better you get at it.

Chloe Porter (43:19):

Salome Schillack (43:19):
And the more you understand the big picture, the better you'll be able to then serve someone as, not just a VA, but as an integrator.

Chloe Porter (43:28):
Yeah. That's right. So constantly just learning, learning, learning, having experience in things. But being an online business manager and a business integrator, it's not something you can just learn. You do have to have the skill for it. A lot of people will say, "I'm an online business manager now," but then you work with them all the things you're doing, and you kind of like, "Well, are you ..." It's not-

Salome Schillack (43:56):
It's not advanced admin.

Chloe Porter (43:59):
It's not something everyone can just learn, and then go, okay, I have the skills now, I'm an online business manager.

Salome Schillack (44:05):
Yeah, I agree with that.

Chloe Porter (44:06):
Like you really have to pick [crosstalk 00:44:09] part of you.

Salome Schillack (44:10):
There's a passive function. There's a very specific brain function in terms of having the ability to see both the big picture, and be incredibly detail driven as well.

Chloe Porter (44:23):

Salome Schillack (44:24):
And I am big picture, will never be able to do the details. So I have absolute admiration for anyone who can do both those things. An amazing skill. It's a rare skill as well.

Chloe Porter (44:37):
It is. And you have to be extremely driven and extremely committed. It takes a lot of brain power, a lot of patience. Some things that we know businesses need, they can't be built in a week, or even a month, or two months, it takes time. You can do it the really quick way, but you're not going to get the high end result that you want. You'll get something that might work, but has 20 bumps in it, and then it's kind of like, well, does it really work?

Chloe Porter (45:11):
It takes time and it takes a lot of patience. And all you need to do is trust your online business manager, or your business integrator to know that they are experienced, and do know what they're doing, because the minute you start trying to micromanage too much or change things without telling them, that's where you're going to get a lot of bumps, because your partners, you need to work together. You need to understand things together. You need to make decisions together. Because if you've got one person working on something, then somebody else working on something completely different, it's all just going to clash. It's not going to work. You're going to have more headaches.

Salome Schillack (45:50):
Yes, you are. Yes, you are. And I hope that I am a good client for you guys, and I hope that I have left you to do your work as you've done incredible work. So thank you for that. So if somebody wants to ... Do you guys actually do VA work as well or do you just do integrator work?

Chloe Porter (46:08):
So we don't offer anything that's hourly. So if someone says, "I need 20 hours a week or anything like that," we don't do that. We don't do reception. We don't do really minor admin tasks and management, social scheduling, all those things. And we don't do that because we know that our audience needs an integrator that can see the bigger picture, and do the bigger picture to get the result that they need.

Chloe Porter (46:35):
We have clients that have had massive results when we do it that way, and therefore, we do not like to do smaller things. Sure, we can help every now and again, but it's not something we like to focus on because you're not going to achieve the big mind blowing results that you would and that we've seen should you have of hired and integrator to do all the other things.

Salome Schillack (46:57):
Yes. And I feel like you guys came into my life at exactly the right time to just work your magic, clean things up, shape things a little bit, and that's just our springboard to the next level. So thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you so much for-

Chloe Porter (47:15):
You're very welcome.

Salome Schillack (47:15):
... for pouring all your magical Chloe love into my business. Your fingerprints are everywhere. I love it. Where can people learn more about Audacious Empires if they're looking for integrators too?

Chloe Porter (47:28):
They can head to audaciousempires.com. We also have a dedicated online business integrator page, which is audaciousempires.com/onlinebusinessintegrator. And that's where you can learn a little bit more about online business integrators. You can see all of the mind blowing results that clients have achieved, and the kinds of people we like to work with, and it will also tell you how you know if you're ready for a business integrator as well.

Salome Schillack (47:58):
That's awesome. And we have so many listeners in other countries outside of Australia, do you guys work with people in the U.S. and maybe in the UK as well?

Chloe Porter (48:08):
We most definitely do, and we have, and we still do. The only thing I would say that they need to consider is, are you going to be okay with not having that 24/7 contact because of the time difference?

Salome Schillack (48:22):

Chloe Porter (48:23):
Is that something we can definitely be okay with that? And we are okay with that, but you need to ask yourself, is that something and you're okay with too, because obviously we're not going to be awake at two o'clock in the morning when you're.

Salome Schillack (48:36):
Of course. And it's kind of similar to the clients that we work with that I have to say, if they're in the UK or the U.S., I have to say to them, "Look, we have dedicated office hours. It is Australian times. And we have such good systems in place because we've been doing it for so long. We do it with our eyes closed. We know it can work, but we've got to plan to work and work the plan. And then it can work." And it's usually the people who like the chaos that it doesn't quite work so well with. And then we just say, "Well, you like chaos, we don't like chaos. Happy travel."

Chloe Porter (49:11):
That's right. That's right. So it can work, you just need to ask yourself, are you going to be okay with it? Can you trust somebody to be able to do things without you constantly looking and-

Salome Schillack (49:22):
Yes. And the nice thing, what I've heard from my friends in the U.S., or from our clients in the U.S., what they've said to me, what's so nice for them is, they wake up in the morning and everything is in their inbox, and then they can work, and then they reply, and they do whatever they do, and there's a little bit of an overlap where they're on and we're on. Especially if you're on the West Coast in the U.S., there's a bit more of an overlap when we're both on, and then we log of, and then the next morning they come in, and it's all sitting in their inbox again for them.

Chloe Porter (49:56):
Yep, yep. And what I used to like doing with a client that did work in the U.S. was, leave her recorded videos, so it felt like we were still looking at each other and we'd reply and recorded videos. Even if it wasn't anything work-related to talk about, it was still nice to go, "Hi, this is my face. Just wanted to see how's your weekend?" Doing things like that, so you still feel connected to.

Salome Schillack (50:20):
Yeah. And I think that is the future. And that's why we can build businesses that work better for us. Because we can balance our time and create more time, freedom, and build businesses with doing jobs that we actually love, and that we feel passionate about.

Chloe Porter (50:39):
Yeah, that's right.

Salome Schillack (50:40):
Yeah. Chloe, thank you so much for being here and for sharing all of this with all of the listeners today.

Chloe Porter (50:45):
No worries. Thank you for having me.

Salome Schillack (50:47):
All right.

Salome Schillack (50:48):
Well, I hope you enjoyed that as much as I enjoy working with Chloe and having her part of my team every single day. Remember you can get hold of Chloe by going to www.audaciousempires.com or find the Audacious Empires team on Instagram or Facebook at @Audacious Empires. I hope you have a wonderful week and I'll catch you again next week. Bye.

Salome Schillack (51:11):
Thank you so much for listening. If you had fun, please come back next week and remember to hit that subscribe button, so you never miss a thing.

152. How To Instantly Create More Freedom In Your Business


152. How To Instantly Create More Freedom In Your Business

19 Apr 2022 | By Salome Schillack

Have you really been able to create freedom for yourself in your business?

You gave up that stable corporate job to pursue a freer life….but you're still bogged down by mundane things; you're still stressing about money; some of the people you have to deal with day-to-day STILL suck. 

Where is this freedom you signed up for? 

Let's take a few steps back. What does freedom mean to you? Is your idea of freedom spending the rest of your life drinking Pina Coladas on the beach and doing nothing? 

Sorry to burst your bubble. That ain't freedom!

Freedom in the entrepreneurial sense is waking up every morning and deciding what your world will look like. It's choosing to spend your time building something you love and fuels your fire rather than slaving away and creating someone else's dream. It's deciding how your time is spent each day (and yes, SOME of it may be spent sitting on the beach drinking cocktails).

Tomorrow, if you decided all of this was too hard, you could switch off your emails and head back to your corporate job.

And that in itself is freedom. You have the freedom to choose!

If you're not feeling very free in your business, it's time to delve deeper and understand exactly what freedom means to you. 

This week on the Shine Show, I'm taking you behind the doors of The Launch Lounge, where a beautiful moment between some of our exceptional students took place on a coaching call. Let me tell you firsthand that there is nothing more inspiring than seeing online course creators bonding over the challenges and the joys of building a business. 

I've seen online course creators make a ton of money and still not feel free. Until you properly understand what freedom means for you, you'll never experience the soul-filling, joy-inducing freedom you deserve!

So tune in now and be inspired by this truly magical moment from behind The Launch Lounge doors.



P.S I would love to hear what you took away from this episode. It always makes my day hearing your feedback and what you found valuable. Slide into my DMs and let me know!

When you subscribe and review the podcast not only does that give me the warm and fuzzies all over, it also helps other people to find the show.

When other people find the show they get to learn how to create more freedom in their lives from their online courses too!!

So do a good deed for all womenkind and subscribe and review this show and I will reward you with a shout out on the show!!


161. IOS Updates. Tools To Improve Performance


160. Navigating Fear and Reclaiming Personal Power With Claire Yee

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159. Your Launch Failed.. Now What?


158. Learning To Value Slow Progress Over Instant Success When Chasing Your Dreams with Diane Evans


157. 3 Things Every Online Marketer Needs To Know To Successfully Scale Their Online Course Funnels


156. Three Design Trends The Algorithm Loves with Jacqui Naunton


155. What To Fix First In Your Funnel


154. From Luxury Interior Design To Successful Online Course Creators with Sarah Cates of House Of Funk


153. Hiring an Integrator. How To Find The Right Person The First Time


151. How I’m Slowing Down So That I Can Speed Up


150. How To Show Up As The Expert You Are And Overcome Your Imposter Syndrome


149. How To Find Your People Online and Finally Start Making Sales

Hello everyone. And welcome to episode number 152 of The Shine Show. Today, we're going to talk about how to instantly create more freedom in your business. And today's podcast episode is a recording from a 12 minute clip from a conversation that happened inside our membership, inside the launch lounge. And right after the intro, I'm going to tell you a little bit more about it, and then we'll kick it off. Giving up your time and freedom to make money is so 2009. Hi, I'm your host Salome Schillack and I help online course creators launch, grow, and scale their businesses with Facebook and Instagram ads so that they can make more money and have an even bigger impact in the world. If you are ready to be inspired, to dream bigger, launch sooner, and grow your online business faster, then tune in because you are ready to shine. And this is The Shine Show.

Well, welcome to the episode. Okay. Today's is a little bit different. Someone who is a member of the launch lounge, I won't say her name because I haven't asked her permission to use her name, shared quite vulnerably and quite honestly, in the community that she hasn't yet gotten to the place in her business, where her business creates the freedom for doing other things and that kick started a whole long thread. And then, a coaching conversation on one of our live calls about creating freedom for ourselves in our businesses and in our lives. And it challenged me a little bit because I am thinking a lot as I build a business that is more founded on female power, female power structures, maybe I shouldn't say female, maybe I should say feminine. Feminine power structures and feminine ways of building systems. And just a more feminine way of being in the world. As opposed to the status quo, which is the more masculine male dominated, all the male supremacy and things that were invented by the dudes that keep the dudes in power that does not serve the world anymore.

That does not serve women or men anymore. It does not serve minorities. It does not serve anymore. And my way of protesting I guess, is by not protesting. My way of protesting is by creating things the way I want to see them in the world. So I've been reading, listening, and thinking a lot about how we use marketing. How we talk about making money, how we build teams, how we build businesses, how we spend our time, how we spend our money, all the things that are so automatic and come so naturally in a specific way, because it's the Kool-Aid we've been drinking for so long. So I'm trying to challenge myself on that and this conversation about freedom, the question, have you really been able to create freedom for yourself in your business yet? Challenged me. So we had this conversation that unfolded inside the launch lounge.

And I want to invite you in to have a listen, to kind of be a fly on the wall to a semi-private conversation. It is a private conversation whenever we come together in the launch lounge because we're a safe space. I am making a lot of people vulnerable and sharing some thoughts that they shared in a safe space, but I'm sharing it with you because I know it's safe. I'm sharing with you because I believe it will add much value to you and I'm sharing it with you because I want you to see how incredible it is when you surround yourself with the right people and the right community. There's a little disclaimer, little warning sign that I have to put up. I have a potty mouth. I try to keep it clean on the podcast for the most time, because just like I teach my kids not to swear, I also don't believe it's proper to walk around in the streets where people are strangers, swearing.

But when you get to know me and you get to love me, you discover that I am quite fond of expressing myself quite strongly and in a colorful way. And I'm sure if you're here listening to the podcast, you already know that. But when I watched this clip back, I was a little bit like, "Oh snap, can I put that on the podcast? With my potty mouth and my strong opinions." But I'm choosing to do that because you love me. And I love you. And if I'm not your cup of tea, then you can hang out somewhere else. But I did just want to put this little disclaimer on. So if you have little ones nearby, maybe now's a good time to pop the headphones on because there's some colorful language that we have in this clip.

All right. Well, I hope you enjoy this. I would love to hear your thoughts on this conversation. Head over to Instagram and find me I'm Salome.Schillack and it'll be linked in the show notes and come and tell me what you think about this conversation. Enjoy.

Did you guys read post? I was reading it and I thought, damn she has really called me on selling freedom. Who feels like they have freedom in their business? Who would like... Like, Lucy? Yeah. Okay. Anyone else? Lauren, a little bit. Yeah, I'll do the same as Lauren.

Depends on the day.

Depends on the day. Depends on the day. [crosstalk 00:06:41]

Not very much. I'm completely tied to the business at this moment, but after the launch, I'll have some freedom.

Yeah. And I also want to acknowledge [Luce 00:06:50], that I think you're naturally inclined to hold things quite loosely. I think it's one of your strengths, you're not an anxious anxiety driven hustler mat. Am I right?

I mean, I have sent out in the last few days, which is a hundred percent your fault, like a thousand video messages. I would say I'm a control freak. I am learning. And honestly, through your tutelage, how to let things, how to just be okay. Because six launches ago, yesterday would've completely wrecked me. I would've been like, "I'm not doing this anymore. I'm just going to pick up more speech students. I can't deal with this. This is too stressful," but I do have definitely a more go with the flow. I'm also the group extrovert. I always said, I think Tanya is the only other one that might be with me. But I'm the group extrovert.

Probably. And can I just... I'm married to the biggest extrovert on the planet and my best friend is always like, I've always attached myself to the biggest extrovert because I'm such an introvert. I'm just like those fishes that attaches themselves under the shark. And I just let the extrovert do all the work and I go with. Anyway, that's not what we're talking about. I want to say to this freedom thing, it kind of cut me to the core a little bit because I go, we're in the process of launching [A-lister 00:08:14]. And one of my biggest promises in there is you want freedom. And I think we need to talk about freedom because when I started, I wanted freedom from the decade that I was working for. Do I have that? All day long, I am completely free from being employed ever again.

I can, 100% say I will never be employed by anyone ever again. Completely free. Do I have financial freedom? Yes I do. I make enough money that if my husband stopped earning money today, we'll need to downgrade our home. We'll need to downgrade our spending. We'll need to downgrade our holidays. We'll need to downgrade our luxuries. We'll need to pull our kids from private school, but will we be okay? Hell yes. We'll be fine. We'll be perfectly fine. So there's freedom. Do I feel free every single moment of every day in my business? No, I don't. Sometimes you just got to do things that suck and that doesn't feel like freedom. Sometimes I have to have conversations with imbeciles and that sucks. And I'm trying to imbecile free my life, but I'm not free of it yet. Not free of it yet, but I'm working on it. I'm working on it and I can see myself growing more into it.

So the question about freedom, I will never, ever be as miserable as I was when I was working a full-time job for someone else. That miserability is gone. I don't stress about money. I have enough evidence that I can create money. Honestly, I genuinely have confidence in my ability to create money. I don't stress about money. My husband still stresses about money because he is an employee and he has an employee mindset. And he's like, he has like diseased employee mindset about money. I don't because there's like, "Oh, we want that thing. Okay. I'm going to have to make that money." I can make money. I know I'm empowered to make money and there's freedom in that. But I do want you guys to know that there's the promise of freedom and then there's the freedom that is inside us all along. And those are two different things and you have to be free inside first, but there's also a degree of external freedom that comes. All right. That's my.

Can I speak to that for a second?


Would that be okay? I think that there's... I love this conversation actually. And I think that there's room in there to define freedom, which might help. Because as somebody who's still chasing this vision that I have, I don't not feel... I feel free because I'm doing what I want to do. I'm not trapped in a company. Somebody tossed me a job the other day. She was like, "You know, you might want to apply to this." And I just took a really close look at it and I loved the description and everything like that, but I was like, "How much are they paying these people? Why would anybody do this work for that little?" And the gap was hundreds of dollars. It was crazy. And I was like, "That's just insane." So there's freedom of choice of how I spend my time and what my world looks like. Even if I haven't achieved this other freedom of not worrying about what things cost. That's a freedom. There's a hope for that freedom.

While I live in a freedom of what world, what life am I choosing to live and how am I spending my time and working with the things that I want to, that I feel passionate about and liking my boss. Because my boss is me.

I have that too. I share that feeling that like, do I have financial freedom? No I don't. But did I have the freedom to walk away from something that was not a good fit for me and make a choice that I'm like, "I can always go back to a corporate gig. I can always make $150,000 a year doing some employee job," or-

Working like a slave, you know?

Or you can just sell some more houses. [crosstalk 00:12:53]

I've just said, [inaudible 00:12:54] that.

And it's not about not having crap in our lives. It's about choosing which crap we get. [crosstalk 00:13:04] And having the choice and being able to say no to it.

Being able to choose our crap. Yeah.

We get to choose our crap.

And I want to add another layer to this. When I started my business, I started it because I wanted to be free from a boss and I wanted to make money. I want to make shit tons of money. And I don't apologize for that. And I still do. I don't feel like I make shit tons of money. I feel like I make a healthy amount of money, but I also pay a lot of salaries. And there was a whole new level of freedom I discovered when I started hiring people and you guys know that my thing is, change the way that women work and earn money in the world. I realized very quickly that building a business is not for everyone. That does not mean that those of us that it is for cannot redefine the model of employment. And I don't think I have it figured out a hundred percent, but you guys can see the smoke on Tanya's face. Tanya is employed, but I want to say she's free. I don't know want to say. Tanya brings like Tanya creates her own real.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the freedom for me, which is different than sort of aligned but different. I have my own business that I do around Salome's work and she allows me to be me. That's the freedom that I love. Whereas in my job that I had for... I couldn't color my hair. He complained that my car was too fancy. It was just, he wanted me to fit into a box that I didn't want to fit into. And that's why I left. A bit like Salome's moment with her boss, when she decided to leave, it's just if you're not in alignment, don't be there, but you can create your own world, however you want that to be. If it's a part-time job to get you through or to be part of something bigger, there's nothing wrong with that. Whatever works.

And in the spirit of diversity and creating a more feminine world, we have to shift our thinking from how has it always been done to how can we co-create something together that creates freedom for all of us. And that opens a whole new discussion, which that's a whole nother conversation, but I can also tell you guys that Tanya has... So when I hire people, I look for character, I look for skill and I look for character. And how many hours a week did you work when you started?

About five.

Okay. How many hours a week are you working now?

About 30.

I didn't say, "Oh, oh Tanya, I have this..." I didn't... Do you have a job description?

I just do what needs doing. And actually sometimes, like today I've made decisions you don't even know about.

She has.

You know, we just do it.

Because I trust her. Because we share the same vision. We share the same values and I can see in her bringing her whole self to work, that she has something to add that I can never put in a job ad or a job description. I just have to create the space for that magic to be there. Now, Tanya's very flexible and she kind of works with... She just goes with the flow. Some of the other people in my business are not that much. They need the job description they need, but I know that they need it.

Therefore, I constantly give them reassurance that they're doing the right thing and they're doing the right thing and they're doing the right thing and I'm happy. And I have those conversations, but there's a fine balance. I have to make sure there's a fine balance because people do need structure and certainty. Now I can see my vision come to life of changing the way women work and earn money. And I can start saying, "Well, we are developing some kind of an example here of how people do not have to fit into the corporate box in order to make money in this online courses world, without starting a business." I think that was a delicious tangent. Thank you very much.

I think this would make an amazing podcast or three.

I really hope that inspired you. It was wonderful for me watching it back again and you know how you live through a moment and then when you see it again, recorded like that, there's even more things that you take away from it. And I took away so much more even just after listening to it again. In those moments where we are all having... We're communing, where sharing community and bonding with each other over the challenges and the joys of building online courses businesses. That is magic, that is just pure, pure magic. That's what I live for. It's those moments of human connection we have inside a membership like the launch lounge, where we can vulnerably say that, "Some days I don't feel like I have freedom," and other days say, "Well, I'm so glad I have the freedom to create this thing."

So whatever it is that you took away from that clip today. I mean, there's so much, I'd love to hear from you. Send me a direct message on Instagram, I'm Salome.Schillack and it'll be hooked up in the show notes. Send me a direct message and tell me which part of that clip really got you. Because there are so many, and I know somewhere in there is something that you would've connected with and I hope you have a wonderful, wonderful week. Take care. Bye. Thank you so much for listening. If you had fun, please come back next week and remember to hit that subscribe button so you never miss a thing.


151. How I’m Slowing Down So That I Can Speed Up


151. How I'm Slowing Down So That I Can Speed Up

12 Apr 2022 | By Salome Schillack

I used to think, 'once I start making serious money, I'll feel worthy.' Low and behold, the very month that my business made the most profit ever, I had a breakdown in the form of a panic attack (let me tell you, they ain’t fun).

But I managed to turn it into my biggest breakthrough.

Now I look back on this experience, and I am so grateful it happened because it was a defining moment that changed my life and business and forced me to slow down, nurture myself and the things I love. 

Because I discovered that when building a business from the ground up, the challenges will ALWAYS be there.

What you're experiencing right now IS the business experience. And if you don’t slow down, you’ll fall down. So it's time to embrace the journey and learn how to look after yourself along the way. 

That means putting boundaries in place, stepping away from the things that don't serve you (even when they seem to be really good things, like podcasts or audiobooks), staying true to yourself, and focusing on the fire in your heart that got you started in the first place.

You can take some practical steps right now that will help you slow down, find more rest, and work from a place of calm rather than chaos, and I'll show you exactly what worked wonders for me.

Tune into The Shine Show and discover what helped me slow down, find more peace, and enjoy the journey again.




P.S I would love to hear what you are going to do in order to slow down. Jump over to my Instagram and slide into my DM’s and let me know what actions you’ll be taking today!

When you subscribe and review the podcast not only does that give me the warm and fuzzies all over, it also helps other people to find the show.

When other people find the show they get to learn how to create more freedom in their lives from their online courses too!!

So do a good deed for all womenkind and subscribe and review this show and I will reward you with a shout out on the show!!


161. IOS Updates. Tools To Improve Performance


160. Navigating Fear and Reclaiming Personal Power With Claire Yee

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159. Your Launch Failed.. Now What?


158. Learning To Value Slow Progress Over Instant Success When Chasing Your Dreams with Diane Evans


157. 3 Things Every Online Marketer Needs To Know To Successfully Scale Their Online Course Funnels


156. Three Design Trends The Algorithm Loves with Jacqui Naunton


155. What To Fix First In Your Funnel


154. From Luxury Interior Design To Successful Online Course Creators with Sarah Cates of House Of Funk


153. Hiring an Integrator. How To Find The Right Person The First Time


152. How To Instantly Create More Freedom In Your Business


150. How To Show Up As The Expert You Are And Overcome Your Imposter Syndrome


149. How To Find Your People Online and Finally Start Making Sales

Hello, and welcome to episode number 151 of The Shine Show. Today, I'm going to share with you how I'm slowing down so that I can speed up. And I just want to say a giant thank you to everyone who has been part of our successful A-Lister online course launch. I have had a blast doing this with all of you. I thank you, if you've been hanging in there waiting for us to close the cart, so we can talk about some other things. And I want to welcome all of my new A-Listers to our Flapper Club, and to our amazing community. I can't wait to be part of that journey of yours, of finding your people online and making your first sale. So thank you, thank you, thank you.


Giving up your time and freedom to make money is so 2009. Hi, I'm your host Salome Schillack, and I help online course creators launch, grow, and scale their businesses with Facebook and Instagram ads, so that they can make more money, and have an even bigger impact in the world. If you are ready to be inspired, to dream bigger, launch sooner, and grow your online business faster, then tune in. Because you are ready to shine, and this is The Shine Show.


Hello. Hello, everyone. It is so nice for me to just hang out with you today. I hope you're having a lovely day. I hope the weather is as nice where you are at as it is right here for me now. I'm recording this on, I want to say, a lazy Friday morning. The sun is out. I'm looking out my office window and I see the swimming pool, and I hear the birds, and I just have this really warm feeling in my heart, because it's a beautiful day. It's a beautiful day to be alive. I went swimming this morning, and I'm feeling good. I hope you are feeling good too.


Have you ever seen Brené Brown's TED Talk? I hope so. I know it was, at one point, the most viewed TED Talk ever, so you probably have seen it. If you're like me, you've probably seen it multiple times. And if you haven't seen it yet, just go to YouTube and Google, Brené Brown TED Talk, or Brené Brown power of vulnerability, I think that's what it's called.


So my favorite part of that talk is where she shares about her, what she calls, she says, "I had a little breakdown," and on the slides behind her, she's crossed out the word breakdown, and written breakthrough. I can associate with that feeling a lot. And I've shared with you before about my little breakthrough that I had last year. I would love to talk more honestly about it and share with you, I think, what led up to that. How I didn't see the raid flags. And how, in hindsight, I can see the red flags, but I didn't see them right then.


And today I want to share with you a little bit of the things that I've changed in my business and in my life, mostly, in my life. I've changed a lot of things in the business as well, but I think I want to share with you mostly today, the things that I've changed in my life that is helping me really slow down, and turn that little breakdown into a breakthrough. And I hope that you find something that you can relate it today. And that in today's episode, there's something you can take and use in your life right now to slow down and be a little bit more mindful of the journey, and take a bit better care of yourself, because that's what it's about.


It's ironic, because last year on the 1st of January, 1st of January 2022, Emil and I, my husband, we went over to our best friends, and we were sitting around a table just having some tea, recovering from our hangovers from the big party we were at the night before. And my friends said, "So what's our theme for this year.' And this is, we're going back the beginning of 2021, we were all still hoping that COVID would go away sooner.


And I said, "This year, 2021, is going to be my year of a radical self-love." Man, was I in for it. Should never have said that. You know the little saying, be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it. Yeah, radical self-love, what I intended when I said, "2021 will be my year of radical self-love," was I intended for that to mean that I am going to take better care of myself. What ended up happening is the world knocked me upside down, inside out, put me in the freaking spin cycle of the washing machine to show me how bad I am at nurturing myself.


And it might be a female thing, a little bit. We tend to nurture the other people more than ourselves. And I never thought that was a problem for me, until I got knocked on my head. So I want to share with you a little bit of that today. You know how much I love of learning and absorbing new information. My life is just a series of obsessions, really. And I think it comes a little bit with leaning towards having ADD or having ADD, I'm still mid-diagnosis. I haven't had a formal psychiatrist tell me that I do have it. My psychologist believes I do have it. I believe I do have it, but we'll see what the jury's... the jury's still out from the psychiatrist.


They're all booked up until October here in Brisbane. I can't get an appointment at a psychiatrist until October. Man, what a good time to be a psychiatrist. So my life is a series of obsessions. I develop obsessions with online course launching, and with Facebook ads, and with coaching and with personal development. But I noticed over time that I can't have a moment of silence without feeling the need to fill it with more information. And the thing that started doing it for me, that was my drug of choice was audiobooks and podcasts. And I love audiobooks and podcasts, because I can feed my obsession obsessively all day long.


And that's where the problem is. I found myself increasing my own anxiety levels with the amount of information I was pumping into my head on a daily basis. And it got so bad that my brain just couldn't cope with processing all the information. I got this sensory overload, where I would be in the kitchen and my husband would sit down and turn on any TV show where there shooting or cars chasing or superheroes with loud action music in the background or the rugby or the Formula One, my senses became so overloaded that I had this auditory overstimulation. Where, as soon as the noise gets to that pitch that it has at a sporting event or the loudness of the car chases and the music that goes with that, I want to leave the room and go lie down on my bed and curl up in a ball.


But I never connected that to the rate at which I was pumping information into my ears. And it got to a point where one day I got out of the shower, and, of course, I have a Bluetooth speaker in my bathroom, because that's the best way to blast more information into my ears while I'm getting dressed and putting my makeup on. And I switched on a podcast, and as soon as I switched that podcast on, my heart started racing, my stomach felt like it jumped into my chest. And I started to get that feeling with that severe anxiety feeling where I'm kind of like seeing stars and almost shaking, and my heart starts racing. And all I did was turned a podcast on. Holy cow, that was a massive, massive red flag moment for me.


So I made a commitment to myself that I was going to turn the audiobooks off, turn the podcasts off, and fill the moments between the moments when I'm getting dressed, the moments when I'm putting my makeup on the moments, when I'm driving the kids around or driving to pick up the kids or drop the kids off or driving anywhere, I'm going to stop pumping information into my ears. And I'm going to go back to one of my favorite, favorite, favorite things, listening to music.


And I just started listening to music again. And it was like, I went, when did I stop listening to music? I have always, always loved listening to music. When did I stop? And it has made me so happy, music makes me happy. Now I can't wait to go into the bathroom in the morning and blast the music, and do a happy dance and sing. And some days it's Beyonce, and some days it's The Greatest Showman, and some days it is Hamilton, and some days it is Ella Fitzgerald, and some days it is country music.


I'm listening to the Yellowstone, the music from the show Yellowstone, I love it. There's a version of the song Wicked Game, which is one of my all time favorite songs. There's a story there, because there was a boy that played it for me, but that's a story for another day, the boy and the wicked game. But I do love that song. I do love that song. I don't think he loves it anymore, because he's pretty much told me I was his wicked game. That's a story for another day.


The music is blasting in my bathroom in the morning and makes me really, really, really, really, really happy. So maybe you have been blasting your ears with too many podcasts, too many audiobooks, I don't know. Maybe for you, it's something else. Maybe for you, it's buying all the online courses. I've been there. Maybe for you, it's watching YouTube videos or checking out Reels or TikTok, or maybe for you, it's something else. It might not be auditory for you. It might be visual. It might be something else. But I just want to make you aware of your senses, because my senses was screaming at me to slow down, and I didn't pay attention to it.


The other thing that has been so amazing for me is for those of you who've hung around me long enough, you'll have heard me talking about my experimentations with meditation for a long time. I actually started meditating around the time I started the business, because I was failing so hard, and everyone kept telling me that it's a mindset issue. And I was like, what is this limiting beliefs everyone keeps talking about? If I can just get over these limiting beliefs. And of course, today, I know that, the mindset people say, "All you need is the right mindset." And the strategy people say, "All you need is the right strategy. And, in fact, you need both.


The best mindset is not going to work if you don't have a plan, and the best plan is not going to work if you can't overcome roadblocks, because you don't have the right mindset. So I just find it really hilarious when I now see all the marketing that I fell for in the beginning that told me, "You are not succeeding because you don't have the right money mindset." And I go, "Sure, but that's not the only reason I wasn't succeeding. I also didn't have an offer that converted." Wisdom comes with age. Today, I'm grateful for the three years I failed, because I really, really, really understand the challenge of getting started from the bottom up.


A tangent, again, I keep going off on these tangents. Meditation, we were talking about meditation. So my psychologist suggested to me... So meditation had been going on and off for a while, and sometimes I love it, and sometimes I feel like it is 10 minute exercise in just having my brain scream at me. Because I don't know if you associate with this, but I sometimes literally have so many thoughts running through my brain at once that it feels like there's voices screaming at me.


And I think when I was getting to the place where my little breakthrough happened, those voices were getting louder and louder and louder and louder and unkinder. Is that a word? They were mean, and they were loud, and they never ever shot up. And so trying to meditate with voices in your head shouting at you, I sound like I'm a little bit cray cray, but cray cray is also normal. I am a little bit cray cray, and I'm also totally, completely normal, which is why I want to have this conversation with you. Because I want you to know that I am completely normal, and I'm also completely cray cray just like you.


And so we have to normalize these things. The voices were screaming so loudly. So whenever I would meditate, I feel like it is just an exercise in sitting there and letting the voices scream at me, which happens all day anyway, so what am I actually here meditating? And then my psychologist suggested to me that, instead of sitting there and listening to the voices, and letting them scream, how about we try to create a few buckets? And whenever the thought comes up, just identify which bucket it goes into, and then put it in the bucket. And then go back to just focusing on breathing, and within a second, the next voice will come up, and then just think about that voice for a second and put it in the bucket it belongs.


So I ended up with a bucket were to-do lists. I ended up with a bucket for things I have to tell my husband. I ended up with a bucket for dreams, ways that I want things to be. I ended up with a bucket for things I'm worried about. I ended up with a bucket for ideas. There was definitely, I can, for sure say, there was a bucket for client work that I was stressed about. I can definitely say there was a bucket for stress about building my team. My team went from, we were four people at the end of 2020, and today there's, including my husband, who's like an honorary member of the team, we're 11.


So my team grew a lot, and I had to make sure I can take care of them. I had to make sure I can pay them. I had to make sure I'm creating structures and processes and a safe space for them. And I had to protect them from just customer service sort of things. There's a degree of protection involved with the team that comes from having templates for emails, and those sorts of things. So there was a bucket for stress about clients. There was a bucket for stress about team. There was a bucket for stress about students. There was a bucket for stress about money. There was a bucket for stress about my kids.


I mean you get the picture, right? The nice thing about the buckets is I started to see patterns in the things my brain was dishing up to worry about. I started to see patterns in the beliefs and the self talk coming out of my brain, which were all, when I paid attention to the patterns, it was so much easier for me to then take that to my therapy sessions, and say, 'I noticed, I think a lot about this, this, and this, and it stresses me out because I think I feel I need to please these people. Or I'm not worthy, if I'm not the best. Or I'm not good enough, if someone doesn't value the work we do the same way I value it."


There's a lot of worthiness things for me that always comes up. And I'm still in the middle of dealing with it and digging into it. But one of the things around worthiness, if I can go on another tangent for a second, one of the things I also... I think I've said this to you before, I currently have a psychologist and spiritual guides. And I'll bring them on at some point on the podcast, because it's really fascinating for me the parallels between what the psychologist who is very scientific and very educated... Not that they're very educated, my spiritual guides, but it's woo, woo stuff, right? It's more woo, woo.


But what I've realized is everything is magic before science proves it to be true. And then it's not magic anymore, then it's just science. So I'm kind of leaning into the whole woo, woo thing, because I don't need science to prove something that I can feel in my heart. And plus, I mean, gravity was magic until it was scientifically proven. They thought the earth is flat until they proved, no, it's actually round and is such a thing as gravity. I think you get what I'm saying.


The spiritual guides, we were talking about worthiness, and I've said to you that worthiness is a big, big, big theme for me. And I'm exploring with my psychologist, how ADD feeds into that, because when you get the message over and over and over and over and over and over and over every single day, thousands of times a day. For years and years and years and years that you are not smart, that you are not capable, that you don't understand, that you are late again because you can't manage your time, or forgot about something, because you weren't listening or paying attention. Or annoyed, because someone interrupted you, because you were focused and you were concentrated.


There's all sorts of ADD stuff that goes along with... in a world where it is not understood, it gets shamed a lot. And I carry with me a tremendous amount of shame over things like being late, things like forgetting details, things like complete, absolute, total lapses in memory after having... I had lunch with someone and I forgot who they were. And I know it's mostly, because I tuned out for most of the conversation, because it wasn't in line with one of my obsessions. And it's just something that, we just become overly obsessed with certain things.


Anyway, I'm not making excuses for forgetting someone's face, but I tuned out. Entertained them because it was socially acceptable, and then I tuned out, and then I forgot them. And then a year later when they came up to me and they were like, "Oh, Salome," I was like, I have no idea who you are. Lots of tangents today.


So the worthiness thing, I think you see where the worthiness thing comes in. The spiritual coaches that I was working with helped me understand for the first time ever that the mere existence of the concept worthiness is a complete lie. There is no such thing as being unworthy. Unworthy is a lie, because we are all part of the same thing. We are all made up of the same thing. And our worthiness is related not to our work or to our ability to do something, not do it, achieve it, be it, manage it, get it, attain it, collect it, work at it, achieve it. That has absolutely diddly-squat to do with worthiness.


We are worthy by nature, and so therefore unworthiness can't even be a thing. Do you feel it? Do you feel it? I feel it. That realization was huge for me. So meditation, if you are meditating, try putting your thoughts that come up... So it starts with breathing, and I asked, "Well, why does everyone keep going back to the breathing thing?" And my psychologist explained to me that it's because it's one of the only things we can consciously do and subconsciously do.


So it's the thing that links our little animal brain with our smart brain, because it's the one thing that we do both automatically and we can do it consciously. So it links both our... I want to say both our brains, so that's the breathing thing. And then when the thoughts come up, put them in buckets, and look for patterns in the type of buckets you're creating.


And then the thing that I'm loving is theta waves. So I have an app on my phone called Insight Timer. It's a free app with thousands of meditations, thousands of tracks with different theta waves and different sorts of music you can listen to. And I just love of it. It's free and you use it, and it just really helps me. And now I can sit down, put my theta waves on, and start meditating. And it's uncanny, because I don't time myself. I don't sit there and put a timer on. But now with the theta wives, I go most 20 minutes every single time. It's always within 19 to 21 minutes. It's weird. So try meditation. And remember you are worthy by nature.


The other day, my friend, my close friend, she's a dentist, she works Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday is when she works. So Wednesdays and Fridays, she has the day off and we go swimming. She swims with me on a Wednesday and a Friday. She swims with me Monday, Wednesday, Friday, but I swim on Wednesday and Friday with her. And every day I ask her, "What are you up to today?" She's got some radical self-love think plan. Like she's going for a facial or she's doing yoga or she's just staying home and renovating the kitchen or working in the garden.


And the one day she said to me, wow, she had the best Friday. She just dropped the kids off at school, and then went to our local coffee shop just around the corner. And she said, she sat there the whole day, reading her book. My first instinct, when she said that was how excruciatingly boring would that have been, ouch. And I thought about the idea of sitting in a coffee shop for six hours, even three hours, sitting in a coffee shop, reading a book. And at my made my skin crawl.


That is how over stimulated I was. That is how anxious my nervous system was that the thought of sitting in a coffee shop, reading a book, literally, made my skin crawl. And now I look back at it, and I think, oh, that sounds amazing. And you know what I remembered, when I thought about this, I remembered when I was in my 20s, when I lived in London, my favorite thing to do, my absolute favorite thing to do was to go to what is that big, giant bookshop called in Oxford Street? I can't remember the name of that bookshop. I wonder if it's still there?


There was this like four or five, six story bookshop, stories, like you have levels of books and there was a coffee shop. And I would go there and spend every Saturday just sitting in the bookshop, in the coffee shop, devouring books. My obsession with consuming information has come a long way, but it was the most relaxing and wonderful, wonderful thing.


And I remember how happy it used to make me. And here I am in my early 40s and my friends says she spent three hours in the coffee shop, reading a book, and it makes my skin crawl. And it kind of made me go, "I have lost myself somewhere in this." Now, I have fiction books. Not personal development, not business, not marketing, not all the things I've been cramming into my brain for seven years straight. Stories, stories. I have read Eleanor Oliphant. And I have read The Vanishing Half. And on our patio outside, we have a hammock, and we have a beautiful view over the suburb, because my house is kind of on a hill, and I have a beautiful view of this green, it's called Mount [Coot-tha 00:31:31]. And it's just this beautiful green hill, with beautiful green suburb. And now I'm lying in the hammock on a Saturday.


I've even created a day bed in my bedroom that is just stacked full of story books. And I just lie there and read on the weekends. And it is the most relaxing thing for me ever, reading actual real books, again. Not cramming as much audio information into my head as I can.


And the last thing I want to share with you that I have done that is making a difference for me. You already know I swim. So I swim three times a week, Monday, Wednesday, Friday. I go swimming, just up at the local school. You know I'm not one of the best swimmers already. And you know that in October I am committing to doing the 100, 100 meters, 100 100s. I'm committed to doing it. I'm going to do it. But you know what else I have found that I loved. I bought an Oculus. An Oculus is that 3D thing that Facebook makes that you put on your head and then you are immersed in a virtual reality.


And I love it. And on my Oculus, I have signed up for Les Mills' kickboxing classes, and I have done so much kickboxing that I actually injured my neck the other day, and had to go see a physiotherapist to get my neck fixed. And do you think, have you ever seen a physiotherapist laugh about an injury when you walk in, and you say, "I injured my neck doing boxing with the Oculus. I have an Oculus injury." Yeah, the physiotherapist cracked up. I had to explain to him what the Oculus is, because those dudes are out running and cycling all day. They're not screen like me.


And then the other thing that I did was I signed up for a running challenge. For my Aussies who know who Turia Pitt is, everybody should know who Turia Pitt it is. Turia is just the most inspirational woman ever. I will link to Turia's website in the show notes, because Turia is someone you should know. She is a marathon runner who got caught in a Bush fire at a marathon, and sustained severe, severe burns to 80% of her body, and went into rehab and was probably in rehab for about, I think, it's two or three years it took her. And now she's running marathons again. And she's just had her second baby, and she's written books, and she's a motivational speaker and she's just the most incredible woman.


And every time I think, ugh, running sucks. I hate running. My knees hurt. My feet hurt. I can't breathe. I think about Turia, and I go, "Nope, if Turia can do it, you can do it." So I signed up for this running challenge with Turia, which I have to confess to you, I have fallen off a little bit. We got COVID just as I started. And then I was like, "Ugh, I can't breathe. I don't want to run." So between swimming and the Oculus kickboxing and Turia's running, I will start running again soon, I am doing a lot more exercise. And all of that has really, really, really helped me.


Oh, and of course, I'm taking medication, anti-anxiety medication. So I take Pristiq, that's the brand name here in Australia. Hang on, let me look up what the official name is, because I'm sure it's called something else. No, I just looked it up. It seems to be also called Pristiq in the US. It is a Desvenlafaxine, is the scientific name. And it is really, really helping me find balance. So between medication, psychologist, spiritual guides, meditation, exercise, eating, I've always eaten fairly healthy, but all these other things, I am one happy camper, and it is going really well.


And so I share all of this with you, because maybe, maybe you can pick up on some of these red flags earlier than I did. Maybe one of these things is a good idea to incorporate into your world. And I will continue need to share with you my journey about how I am becoming more myself, staying more true to myself, nurturing myself, loving myself, really finding what radical self-love really means.


So coming back to Brené Brown's TED talk and her breakthrough, I just wanted to share all my secrets to breaking through for a more Zen life with you as we all build businesses together. Because building a business is, it's an interesting journey. I want you to know that what I found to be true is that everywhere I go, there I am. And the mindset struggles I had when I made no money, still show up for me every day. They just have a different tint. They just have a different flavor. There is a resilience that comes from seeing yourself overcome challenges over and over and over.


And there's a trust that you build in yourself and in your ability to overcome challenges with time. A business gives you that gift, but it gives it to you, unfortunately, in the way that you have to overcome these challenges. Mindset, mind fields are everywhere, and I'm not here to tell you that there's a destination. That there's a place where we get to where we don't have mindset challenges. No amount of money in the bank guarantees you're not going to have mindset challenges or stress or anxiety.


My little breakdown happened at a time when I was making more money than I've ever made in the business, so it has nothing to do with money. It's always going to be there, but it doesn't have to be a breakdown. It can be a breakthrough. And I'm incredibly grateful that I've had that moment now because looking back at it, I can see all the changes I've made in the business, and in my life as a result of it. And I'm really grateful for that. I can see how I am setting healthier boundaries and changing relationships and nurturing things I hold dear more, and saying no to things I don't value.


I can see how this is really just the start of new, beautiful things. As I move forward in this journey to build something that comes out of my head, and out of my heart, and something that was born from creativity. And something that makes other people's lives better every single day. And that is my wish for you too.


May you have a beautiful week. May you have a restful week. May you be mindful of your feeling and your thoughts. And may you listen to your body, so that you can stay true to yourself, and stay true to fire inside you that is burning to make a difference in the world. Have a lovely week and I'll catch you again next week. Bye.


Thank you so much for listening. If you had fun, please come back next week. And remember to hit that subscribe button, so you never miss a thing.